Percussion: How to enter the correct values with a keyboard

Discuss playback problems, including VST, Garritan, MIDI, etc.

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danielschellmus
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Post by danielschellmus » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:26 pm

Hi
Finale 26
I create a DRUM SET Track in the SCORE MANAGER,
DEVICE: Garritan, SOUND: for instance Fusion Drum Kit
Back to the score I can enter notes with the SIMPLE ENTRY TOOL
and then I scroll on the stave with the mouse and I see , for instance, that I can put an E( in Bass clef) and have a snare drum sound.
The problem starts when I want to use the keyboard. I pass to SIMPLE ENTRY TOOL, play the same - supposedly -E, and I get a low G on the stave , corresponding to the bass drum.
There are many pages in the help, which I read many times, however I don't find a simple way to assignin a sound to a keyboard key.
Help appreciated
Daniel


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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:56 pm

It's pretty arcane. The MIDI input and output can be different pitches. The thing that makes an association between a MIDI input note and the position on the staff is called a Percussion MIDI Map. You can create one from a MIDI/Audio submenu; you'll be able to press a MIDI key for each instrument. Then, once set up, you have to point to that in Percussion Input Maps.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:42 pm

Actually, it's simpler than that. Look at the list in the Documentation for the Map you're using. It tells you the MIDI Note Number for each instrument. Just enter that for the instrument you need. The Layout, which is not the Map, tells you also what the MIDI Note Number is for each instrument. I have the View feature to show the MIDI Note Number above or below the notes on a percussion staff to make sure I am doing what I want to do. Middle C is 60. For a Bass Kick, that's C two octaves below Middle C, or 36. Snare Drum is D, which is 38. If you go into the Aria player, you can familiarize yourself with the keys that correspond to the various Drum sounds. After a while, you'll have them memorized. You can even find pictures on the Net which show which instrument lands on which key in GM. For specialized sounds, the Map may use different numbers, but the basics are usually the same for Bass, Snare, Tom, Cymbal, HH, etc.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:44 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:56 pm
It's pretty arcane. The MIDI input and output can be different pitches. The thing that makes an association between a MIDI input note and the position on the staff is called a Percussion MIDI Map. You can create one from a MIDI/Audio submenu; you'll be able to press a MIDI key for each instrument. Then, once set up, you have to point to that in Percussion Input Maps.
I don't believe you need to set up any special Maps. What's given is already ready to use from the standard MIDI keyboard. In my other post I give a little more advice.

Zuill
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Post by motet » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:52 pm

OK, good, thanks.

I'll stick with the maps, though, so I can confine the notes under one hand. I pretend they're either on the treble clef or the bass clef (instead of the percussion clef) so I don't have to memorize anything except where on the staff they lie (the MIDI percussion values seem rather arbitrary). But i tend to have only a handful of instruments in a piece, each with its own staff position.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:52 pm

Well, that's okay for a limited set like you describe. With standard Drum Set notation, instruments share staff positions, so you may have several instruments on space 3, for example. Because of that, you can't assign those multiple instruments to the same MIDI keyboard key. Doing Drum Set notation, you might have 15-20 instruments from the set, if not more. In that case, sticking to the standard GM assignments is probably less confusing.

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danielschellmus
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Post by danielschellmus » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:13 am

Thank you so much Zull and Motet to help me.
I read your posts with attention, however I am still confused.
I am looking for a simple example.
I am writing an opera right now and I need a percussion set say: 'Daniel Set' based on Garritan sounds.
I wish to have those sounds corresponding to notes in Bass clef: Middle line is F. Notes above= Hi; Notes under = Low

Bass clef: hi C : cymbal ; Hi B: tambourine; High A: Tom 1; Hi G: Tom 2 ; middle F : Tom 3 ; Low E: Snare ; Low C: Floor Tom; Low G: HiHat closed (played by foot) ; Low F: Wood Block plate (because played with a pedal)

That is what I still cannot do...
I have tried everything and read the help many times, I still can't have my keyboards generating the correct midi notes.
Your help appreciated, if possible step by step, and not using the SIMPLE ENTRY.
Many thanks again
Daniel

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:29 pm

danielschellmus wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:13 am
… Bass clef: Middle line is F …
I do not understand.

For me, Bass Clef means that the middle staff-line is D.

Perhaps you mean the Baritone Clef?
Attachments
Clefs.jpg
Clefs.jpg (7.8 KiB) Viewed 8828 times
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:05 pm

Ah. When you said Keyboard, I thought you meant MIDI Keyboard, like a keyboard controller (with piano keys). I see now that you are talking about the computer keyboard.

The percussion staff traditionally was a Bass staff, but now the clef usually has a couple of lines that is a fairly standard way of representing the percussion staff. However, the keys on the QWERTY computer keyboard, when in Simple Entry, are routing to the percussion staff as if it is the Treble staff. So, when you press E, it landed on the bottom line, which is E on the Treble Staff.

So, whatever Clef you choose (Bass, Treble, Percussion), when entering with the QWERTY keys in Simple Entry, choose the letter that corresponds to the Treble Staff. To get a Bass Drum on space 1, press F. For a Snare Drum in space 3, press C. To get a Cymbal on the top line, press F. Finale chooses the spot closest to the cursor. So if the cursor is low on the staff, pressing C will most likely give the ledger line below the staff. If the cursor is higher on the staff, pressing C will give space 3.

I hope I now understand what is happening. Your description seems to indicate this: QWERTY keyboard letters in Simple Entry.

Zuill
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danielschellmus
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Post by danielschellmus » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:18 pm

No, no I mean the regular Bass clef , and I named the fourth line F, as middle F . The notes over 4th line High
the notes on 4th line Middle, the notes under 4th line Low
I attach a Finale File and a .jpg to show the percussion map
Of course I don't mind using a percussion clef on the third line. It's just an example of what I am doing.
Attachments
Dharma_Percussion_2.musx
(87.08 KiB) Downloaded 130 times
Dharma_Percussion_2.jpg
Last edited by danielschellmus on Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by danielschellmus » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:21 pm

Hi Zull
Non no I mean a Midi Keyboard
I use the AKAI LPK25
So a regular Midi Keaybord, not the PC Key.
Sorry for the confusion

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:24 pm

The file you attached is not using a Drum Set. It's just a Bass Staff Piano Staff. So, I guess I'm confused. I thought you were entering Drums.

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danielschellmus
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Post by danielschellmus » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:27 pm

Hello Zull,
I know. It is not a drum set. It is just the notation I wish give to the percussionist.
And of course, I wish that the Finale score plays it with the right sounds (midi values) when I use the score as a demo.
SO on the score, the notation would be as I wrote it (or in percussion clef if he likes)
But my demo with sound with the correct sounds.
I hope I am clear.
Many thanks
Last edited by danielschellmus on Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:37 pm

I have revised your file and added a second staff to show a Percussion Staff that plays. I chose the Bass Clef as that is your preference.

I am guessing that you are not too familiar with how Percussion notation works or how Finale handles percussion. You will need to do some study if this is the first time trying to do this. Finale is just the tool to accomplish notation and playback. However, you need to have some basic knowledge of percussion to get what you want.

Zuill

P.S.: In my revised file, I had to modify the normal Drum Set Layout, as it did not have a Woodblock, and a couple of the sounds were on different staff positions than in the attached file.
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Dharma_Percussion_2 Revised.musx
(89.13 KiB) Downloaded 122 times
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danielschellmus
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Post by danielschellmus » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:23 pm

Thank you so much Zull
I installed your file in Finale, but Finale asks me an update to ARia
So i am downloading.

Yes it is the first time that I go into percussion notation with sound
I am willing to learn how to do it properly of course, but how???
Finale Help seems to be containing all valuable info but it is going into many directions and difficult to follow step by step.
I didn't find video help on YouTube either.
What is your advice on that matter?

So I shall try to understand what you sent me and come back to you, if I may.
Many thanks again
Daniel

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:36 pm

I'm not sure how easy it will be to learn quickly, as there is a learning curve if this is your first pass at how Finale does percussion. If you lived close, I would invite you over for coffee and some one-on-one tutoring. However, if you are the composer from Belgium, that would be a bit hard, as i am in Southern California, USA. I suppose I could help over a Zoom call.

I hope you figure it out. If you do need some one-on-one, send me a Private Message on this forum, and let's see what we can do.

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Post by zuill » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:48 pm

This is a picture I captured from the net to show the MIDI Keyboard assignments for GM (General MIDI) Drums (Percussion). From there, the Maps and Layouts in Finale can make changes, assigning different MIDI numbers to the Piano keys. However, the Fusion Kit sticks to this format, as far as I recall. In the Percussion Layout, you can change the placement on the Staff for each of the instruments, but the MIDI number stays the same as in the selected Map. You can also change the chosen noteheads. If you don't want to use x's or triangles, or whatever are the customary note shapes used in Percussion notation, and want to use standard noteheads, that is easily accomplished.

Zuill
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GM Standard Drum Map.PNG
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Post by motet » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:03 pm

Zuill's method is probably easiest in that it requires no setup, but here's what I did to map MIDI bass clef G, D, and B to enter bass drum, triangle and symbol.

These are the OUTPUT MIDI values:
0801.png
These are the INPUT MIDI values:
0802.png
0802.png (10.74 KiB) Viewed 8759 times
You need to do this, too:
0803.png
0803.png (6.08 KiB) Viewed 8759 times

danielschellmus
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Post by danielschellmus » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:08 pm

Thank You Zuil and Motet
I start to see a bit more clear now
Zuill Thank you for your t'Dharma_Percussion_2_Rvised' It's exactly what I wanted. I Analysed your Track Drum Set. I went to the PERCUSSION LAYOUT DESIGNER and
I saw how you modified the STAFF POSITION

Motet thank you also

I shall take a little bit of time and study those elements in depth

Daniel

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:10 am

Following up on this topic.

I had never had a need to create a Custom Input Map. I've created Custom MIDI Maps and Custom Layouts. This topic has lead me to stretch my Finale chops. Motet's careful description of what he does was most helpful. Even though I haven't had a need to create a Custom Map for my own use (I use the standard MIDI key assignments for MIDI percussion input), I can see how this can be a useful approach for some users.

I see there's a Topic on the Zendesk forum (which I boycott) asking for this ability as a "Feature Request". Someone should direct the poster over here so he can see that Finale already has this feature.

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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:48 am

zuill wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:10 am
… Someone should direct the poster over here so he can see that Finale already has this feature …
Done.
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danielschellmus
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Post by danielschellmus » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:13 am

Hi,

This is the 4th opera I write with Finale. Everything works fine in Finale, it's even simple to use, when you know it. There was just a big problem for me: entering Percussion notes, in SPEEDY ENTRY mode, with the right sound. Despite trials and consulting colleagues, I never understood how to do and, honestly, I started to be tired of hearing and presenting my demos with cowbells and Brazilian whistles in my string section!

Zuill and and Motet helped me a lot and I am now able to play my percussion notes on the MIDI Keyboard - a common AKAI LPK25 Mini- in the staff and hear them with the right sound.
Although the Finale system works great, I read the Finale help so many times and could not understand well. The Percussion documentation is perhaps too long and leads to confusion. It needs a simpler introduction with some examples.

Motet's words are : "It's pretty Arcane!" But then he presented simply what to do.
So I understood and practiced with the help of Zuill:
First set up your instruments with their OUTPUT MIDI values, in the PERCUSSION LAYOUT DESIGNER
Then set up your INPUT MIDI values (the actual keys of your keyboard) in the PERCUSSION MIDI MAP EDITOR
Then select your Percussion Midi Map in the PERCUSSION INPUT MAPS
and "that's it".

You will of course need to use the SCORE MANAGER and the ARIA player. Yes, it's not simple, but it's great.
Thanks again to this Forum

Daniel

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:19 pm

The one thing to remember is that Percussion maps are saved locally, and are not saved with the file. Layouts are. So, if you want to send a file to someone else, then you need to send instructions as to the Map that you created, so the recipient of your file can duplicate your Map. If the sounds are a subset of an existing Map, then that should allow use of the full Map in the sent file. If the recipient doesn't need to input from a MIDI keyboard, then the Custom Map won't need to be selected in the MIDI Input window.

Zuill
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Post by dbwohl » Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:11 pm

Hey, all! Thx for an informative thread on this subject. I was the recent poster of the feature request. I actually posted it on the heels of one of the MakeMusic tech guys musing on making Finale a bit more DAW-ish, in order to more easily do this kind of MIDI reassignment.
Hey, Zuill, I’d be interested to do a brief screen share, if you’re open to it, to nail this down for me. Thx for considering.

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Post by motet » Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:28 pm

It's pretty confusing that the way you create or edit one of these maps is with "Edit Percussion MIDI Maps", but you also have to go to "Percussion Input Maps" to point to it. This latter setting behaves like a program setting, so if you switch from editing one piece to another and they have different input maps, you need to manually go and switch to the proper input map.

("Edit Percussion MIDI Maps" lets you change the output MIDI values as well, e.g. of Garritan Instruments for Finale, though I'm not sure why you would ever do that. You also get this dialog if you create a new layout in the Percussion Layout Designer. Normally you would just use this to point to one, not edit it, and you'd use one of Finale's built-in output maps, not your custom input map.)

On my system my custom maps are stored in

C:\Users\Motet\AppData\Roaming\MakeMusic\Finale 2014.5\MIDI Device Annotation

(I have a motet.xml in there.) When you upgrade or reinstall Finale, your custom maps needs to be copied there manually.

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