Play only on Pass x trouble

Discuss playback problems, including VST, Garritan, MIDI, etc.

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montedoro44
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Post by montedoro44 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:29 pm

Sorry to be repeatedly troubled lately. The attached doc refuses to ritard on Pass 3. This is a dumbed-down, speeded-up version of the original faulty doc. I have constructed a couple of same-structure docs ( ending 1,3), ending 2, repeats, D.S. ), same number of measures, etc., that do work correctly. I tried copying the notes from my faulty doc into a good blank one, and it stopped working. Tried xml intervention also, didn't work. Also tried rall on pass 3, rit & rall on pass 2 and on pass 1 -- no good, it likes only rit & rall without selecting a pass #. But other docs work. Gremlin somewhere? Thanks.
Attachments
3rd-time rit trouble.musx
(102.01 KiB) Downloaded 95 times


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zuill
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Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
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Post by zuill » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:06 pm

If the attached is close, I can tell you how I did it. Or, you can explore first and see what I did.

Zuill
Attachments
3rd-time rit trouble Revised.musx
(102.77 KiB) Downloaded 89 times
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

montedoro44
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:21 pm
Finale Version: 27
Operating System: Windows

Post by montedoro44 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:06 am

That works perfectly, zuill, and thanks, but I'm not quite enabled yet. I (finally!) see that this work is in the Midi Tool, and so your visible expression might be only decoration, or is it? I see the sloped line you drew at Midi Tool to define the rit. I don't yet know how to do that -- my next project.

Still stymied though, by the Playback choices in your No-rit expression. If there is a ritard defined there, and you tell it to not activate in pass 1, then logically it seems that it should activate in passes 2 & 3, but it activates only in pass 3. Also, I replaced your Set-to-value zero to 127 to see what would happen, and that didn't seem to change the behavior.

The larger frustration is that Finale shows the box to check Play Only on Pass x, and that doesn't work here. I wonder what about this doc makes it not work.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:42 am

The hidden expression says to only play on pass 1 (to bypass the MIDI Tempo Data). I tested it and it worked for both pass 1 and 2, so I guess we got lucky there. The shown expression says to play on pass 3, so the MIDI Tempo Data was recognized there. I also tried 127 instead of 0 (zero). I guess the particular command doesn't require a value, so I left it at 0 (zero).

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

montedoro44
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:21 pm
Finale Version: 27
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Post by montedoro44 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:36 am

Good news -- the mystery is solved. I put in a help request at MakeMusic Customer support, and received a fast response that pinpoints the source of trouble. Here is the full response, from Austin W., Customer Support Representative:

=========================
Tempo alterations such as rit. and rall. are interpreted by Human Playback (HP) during playback of the document. In order for this to work, the expression needs to be one that is recognized by HP. For example, the default "rit." and "rall." expressions are recognized by HP. In your document, I see that you created a copy of the "rall." expression and edited it to say "3rd time." As a result, HP no longer recognizes the expression.

I tried removing the "3rd time" text from the expression so that it reads "rall." only. This allows HP to interpret the expression, and it correctly plays on the 3rd pass only. Please see the attached version of your document. If this works correctly for you, then you can add "3rd time" using the text tool or in a separate expression.
=========================

My comment: Wonderful that the problem is resolved. Not wonderful that some programmer made a secret list of expression names that HP recognizes. I will respond to ask if this list is available to the user, and can be added to. OTOH, since the same or similar effects can be user-made & named by going directly to HP, that takes the heat off of reprogramming. But a lot of avoidable & time-consuming consternation resulted from the system as is.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:44 am

Would you post the file that they revised for you so we can examine it? Their suggestion fails to work for me.

Zuill

P.S.: I tried again and I see that it won't work if attached to beat 1 (after the repeat sign), but will if attached to beat 2.
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

montedoro44
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:21 pm
Finale Version: 27
Operating System: Windows

Post by montedoro44 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:53 am

Here it is, but I see your point -- mine misbehaves the same. I will broach this with him.
Attachments
MM test - Test for rall 3rd time.musx
(100.4 KiB) Downloaded 85 times

montedoro44
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:21 pm
Finale Version: 27
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Post by montedoro44 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:51 pm

Here is the response to close out these issues:
========================================
You can refer to Human Playback Dictionary in the user manual. HP recognizes "rall," of course. Usually, it is not a problem to duplicate and/or edit expressions. However, HP is a very complex engine, so we can't always predict how it will behave. In this specific case, adding "3rd time" after "rall" prevents HP from recognizing the expression.

This new situation with the rall. positioned on beat 1 after a repeat seems to be a bug. I have seen similar cases where the presence of a repeat can conflict with tempo expressions. Deleting the repeat allows the rall. to work correctly, and moving the rall. to beat 2 also works. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will write a report of this issue for our developers to review, and hopefully they will be able to fix this type of situation in a future version of Finale. Unfortunately, we won't be able to provide a timeline on when it might be addressed. It is uncommon to add a rall. on the 1st beat after a repeat, so this situation doesn't come up too often. If you encounter a situation where you do want the rall. to start on beat 1 after a repeat and HP isn't working for you, you can record the tempo change using TempoTap or scale the tempo using the MIDI Tool ​.
=======================================

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DavidGaines
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Post by DavidGaines » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:39 pm

Wonderful that the problem is resolved. Not wonderful that some programmer made a secret list of expression names that HP recognizes. I will respond to ask if this list is available to the user, and can be added to.
It's not a secret at all: https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/Fin ... ionary.htm

I agree that it would be nice if expressions not currently included could be added.
-------
David Gaines, DMA | Composer
Finale 26.3.1, Windows 10, GPO5, COMB2, JABB3, NotePerformer 3.3, VSL SE + downloads
davidgainesmusic.com

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