Using Finale w/DAW, CineStrings or the like

Discuss playback problems, including VST, Garritan, MIDI, etc.

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bj nick
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Finale Version: v26, NP3
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Post by bj nick » Tue May 25, 2021 4:31 pm

So my grand plan is to continue using Finale as my main composing tool, but for enhanced playback, also start using a really good DAW as well as high-level sampling libraries such as CineBrass/CineStrings et al. I don't use audio; just Finale. I see my process as composing on Finale, exporting to the DAW for some basic levels, etc, to hear things as close to "right" as I can, then ultimately complete the projects in the DAW.......but to be clear: I don't have a lot of technical skills or "production" aspirations.....I just want projects to sound good for my own satisfaction and to create works for others to perform. Assuming I'll be upgrading to a very capable PC, what are my considerations/limitations?
Last edited by bj nick on Wed May 26, 2021 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Finale v. 26, Windows 10, NP3, Garritan Instruments for Finale


Bill Reed
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Post by Bill Reed » Wed May 26, 2021 12:31 pm

Do you plan to use the "big" sample libraries to compose in Finale, or just when you move a piece over to a DAW? What sort of music to you compose/want to compose?

Working a DAW is a whole different world, and you have to do MANY things manually that Finale does through notation and HP.
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bj nick
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Finale Version: v26, NP3
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Post by bj nick » Wed May 26, 2021 3:21 pm

Thanks for responding. These days I compose mainly chamber music, but studying orchestration. Honestly, I intend to mainly work in Finale, then export tracks to the DAW and do basic leveling, etc. My intention would (hopefully) to select sampled sounds while I'm working in Finale, as long as it's simple. This is where I lack the basics. Can I just select this or that sampled instrument just the same as I'd choose a Garritan or NP3 sound? I get frustrated with the compromises I have to make with playback; I just want it to be better, while keeping my main focus on composing. As I learn the nuts and bolts of using the DAW, I assume I'll start doing more with it......but as I say, I'm not looking to put out a "product," which I realize involves a lot of knowledge and skill.
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Bill Reed
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Post by Bill Reed » Wed May 26, 2021 4:25 pm

Because of flaws in Finale's playback system, few sample developers create Human Playback (HP) settings for their libraries. HP is what translates the articulations and expressions in your score into the right patches the sample library. You'll need to create these setting yourself. Not really difficult but very tedious.

If you just want to adjust levels, add reverb, etc, you can use a free program called Audacity. If you want to fiddle around with a Full fledged DAW, you can get Cakewalk totally free, but don't let that fool you; it used to cost hundreds of dollars. Other DAWs usually and a one month demo available.

Some libraries would require you to purchase a separate sample player, some provide one for free.
CineSamples is oriented more towards film soundtrack type music. You might consider Vienna Symphonic Library (VSL). They offer an introductory sample set that's very good. Many people seem to love NotePerformer, but I have no experience with it. I don't think it would work in a DAW.

There are so many if/then choices in all this that it's hard to give firm direction :)
Finale 25, Overture, Sibelius, Notion, Cubase, StaffPad
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bj nick
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Finale Version: v26, NP3
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Post by bj nick » Wed May 26, 2021 6:24 pm

Hey Bill, thanks. I used Cakewalk in the 90's, had fun with it, back then I played trpt. regularly, entered backgrounds etc. with a MIDI keyboard, melodies/parts on trumpet. Today I don't play anymore (medical reasons w/my elbow) and would prefer to stick to Finale if possible; it's a fun, productive tool for me. To be clear: I am not afraid of devoting $$$ to this to get the stuff I need: a really good DAW, sampling libraries, all of it. Not looking for free (but limited) tools. But I want to strike the best compromise with focusing on composition w/Finale, along with exporting tracks to the DAW to get really great playback. Where I will balk is if I wind up spending hours and hours fiddling with stuff on the DAW that is confusing and frustrating. I think there's got to be a solid middle ground where I'll find greater satisfaction with playback. It's REALLY important to me.
Finale v. 26, Windows 10, NP3, Garritan Instruments for Finale

bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Wed May 26, 2021 6:25 pm

And thanks for the Audacity tip: I will check that out promptly.
Finale v. 26, Windows 10, NP3, Garritan Instruments for Finale

Jetcopy
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Post by Jetcopy » Thu May 27, 2021 1:13 am

I would suggest that you try NotePerformer. IMO, the playback is a step up from Garritan and it works in Finale. They have already customized Human Playback so it just works.

With Cinestrings, in Finale you cannot simply switch to Cinestrings and expect playback to work, it won't. Each library uses different midi programming, as Bill said, you can create your own Human playback preferences for any library you wish, but it's time consuming.

It takes time to learn Finale, it also takes time to learn a DAW. It can be frustrating and time consuming until you learn the program.

I would also caution you when selecting sample libraries. The demos you hear are done by users who are masters at using a DAW. More than likely, your tracks won't sound like theirs for a while. Make sure you watch youtube walkthru's of a sample library you're interested in. UNderstand what midi controls are necessary to use with each library. It's important to learn how to use these tools.

Like Bill said, Cinestrings is aimed at cinematic music. You might be better off with a drier library, one recorded with little reverb. VSL fits that description. I use Spitfire's BBCSO which I'm happy with.

heinzfan
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Post by heinzfan » Thu May 27, 2021 2:17 pm

Since I had the same thought about using a DAW to fine-tune the playback, I’ve experimented with both Reaper (free two month trial, then $60) and Magix Samplitude (free one month trial then $100+ depending which version). Each came with an issue that I had to solve by finding the information outside of the respective help files. I’m still a mere novice in using the DAWs but BjNick might find this feedback helpful.

I use Vienna Instruments samples and the Vienna Ensemble player. My process is to create the music and playback in Finale, then export a midi file to the DAW. I save the Vienna setup so I don’t have to recreate it when opening the midi file in the DAW. Vienna does provide an HP keyswitch library for Finale, so when playing back the file in Finale, or subsequently, the DAW, the correct articulations are hit, as well as the HP dynamics, which I assume are saved as CC data in the midi file.

It’s true that for different sample libraries a new set of keyswitches might need to be programmed in Finale, but I assume that true of all sample sets.

The Finale Blog included an article about using Finale and DAW: https://www.finalemusic.com/blog/using- ... kstations/ Although the blog is based on using Logic’s DAW and Finale’s built-in Garritan samples, it’s a good overview of the overall process.
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Bill Reed
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Post by Bill Reed » Thu May 27, 2021 7:31 pm

It would probably be wise to wait and see what Fin27 has to offer, as that might impact the choices you make.
Finale 25, Overture, Sibelius, Notion, Cubase, StaffPad
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bj nick
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Finale Version: v26, NP3
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Post by bj nick » Fri May 28, 2021 5:30 pm

Great feedback. Yes, heard from someone who knows this stuff who said the exact same thing: experts create those dazzling demos, you have to learn it on your own to get close. VSL does sound like an excellent option that I will definitely consider. My hope is that I can have what you described: lock in things as templates to use repeatedly, rather than having to build stuff from scratch all the time.

Yes, maybe a good idea to wait for v.27 and see where we're at. Audacity tip was great, already started using it, even just for leveling / mixing purposes it's already an improvement, though time- consuming considering I have to export .wav files one by one. I followed someone's advice on a blog where they suggested using "solo" on the Finale mixer for each instrument, and doing that for all six instruments in my ensemble for just one of the pieces, the results are a definite improvement. I'd prefer using MIDI files, but didn't see it as an option, and haven't yet explored things much.

Need to settle on a really good DAW that will work well in conjunction w/Finale, then start learning it: tutorials, exploring, maybe take some lessons from someone who really knows this stuff, especially using it with finale, since my workflow is untypical from most people who normally use a DAW w/an audio interface.
Finale v. 26, Windows 10, NP3, Garritan Instruments for Finale

bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:23 pm

heinzfan wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 2:17 pm
Since I had the same thought about using a DAW to fine-tune the playback, I’ve experimented with both Reaper (free two month trial, then $60) and Magix Samplitude (free one month trial then $100+ depending which version). Each came with an issue that I had to solve by finding the information outside of the respective help files. I’m still a mere novice in using the DAWs but BjNick might find this feedback helpful.

YES. Thank you!

<<I use Vienna Instruments samples and the Vienna Ensemble player. My process is to create the music and playback in Finale, then export a midi file to the DAW. I save the Vienna setup so I don’t have to recreate it when opening the midi file in the DAW...>>

So this isn't wildly complicated to save the setup and reuse it whenever needed?

In general, any feedback on how much processing power/RAM / etc. I should plan on getting? (I'll soon be upgrading from my older laptop and desktop PCs. I'm figuring for the desktop: i9, 32G RAM, 1T SSD. Laptop: i7, 16G RAM, 512G SSD. Am I good? I do intend to run similar sample libraries as you indicate: Vienna or similar quality.
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heinzfan
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Post by heinzfan » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:38 am

If you check the websites for the sample libraries that interest you they provide minimum specifications. I still operate Windows 8.1, 16 GB ram and have no problem. My operating system is on an SSD, and my sample libraries are on a separate SSD. I don't know if this is still the case, but at one time sample libraries recommended placing the libraries on a separate drive from the OS.
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bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:02 am

Okay, that makes sense. My thinking is to be on top of the curve even if it's a little bit of overkill, since I know within 3-4 years I'm going to be behind the curve. I will check those sites and I will plan on having a separate SSD drive for the sample libraries. Thanks for the great info.
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david_t_rodda1
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Post by david_t_rodda1 » Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:22 pm

Given the passage of time (now 2023), what DAW did you pick to go with Finale 27?

I have similar musical interests and want to pick a DAW that works well with Finale. I assume you chose a DAW and have been using it with Finale for some time.

What DAW did you choose?
Which sound files are you using with the DAW?
And in hindsight, are you happy with your choices or have other recommendations?

Thanks much.

bj nick
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:10 am
Finale Version: v26, NP3
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Post by bj nick » Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:02 pm

Hi, thanks for following up....and reminding me I have NOT gotten started, really, with a real DAW as I had intended. I decided to start with Audacity, it's all I've needed to create a few quick demos for a web site, but you're reminded me to get back into once I have a moment to breathe: lots of deadlines coming up; no time for yet another big endeavor. But I did talk to a friend who does sort of big-time projects, has a state of the art studio using all the software. In fact, he did all the keyboard (performance) work for EastWest, I believe. He showed me that I can actually use EastWest, etc. sounds right within Finale, which was interesting. Lots to learn with this stuff.
Finale v. 26, Windows 10, NP3, Garritan Instruments for Finale

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