Need help with custom transposition

Discuss playback problems, including VST, Garritan, MIDI, etc.

Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker

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Djard
Posts: 916
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:23 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Djard » Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:03 pm

I have occasion to perform a task that I find confusing; so I wrote the steps I followed (see below), in the event I have occasion to repeat them in the future. The steps work well, except for the playback, which ends up one octave above concert pitch because in step 3 below, Finale erroneously drops the notation a major 9th instead of a major 2nd. I tried to lower the pitch an octave in Score Manager, but all transposition in Score Manager adds an octave and is always downward. Is there a way to skip step 2 below but still have the notation correctly written and play back in concert pitch?
__________

• Transposition (Custom):

In the example below, we have a guitar trio
in the key of G that decides to play the
piece in the key of A. But Guitar 3 wants
to keep playing in G and use a capo on the
2nd fret. So we will transpose Guitars 1
and 2 up a major 2nd. We will then transpose
Guitar 3 back to G but have Finale play back
the part 1 tone higher than written.

1. Key Signature tool (upper toolbar) ->
right-click in first measure -> select
"A Major.: All key signatures and all
notation in the document will move up
a major 2nd.
2. Since Finale erroneously transposes a
major second as a major 9th, we need to
transpose the instrument up one octave
in advance: Selection Tool -> highlight
the all the measures of Guitar 3 ->
right-click in highlighted area ->
Transpose -> Up 1 octave.
3. Window (upper text menu) -> Score Manager
Instrument List tab -> select "Guitar 3"
-> from "Transposition" drop-down menu,
choose "(D) Down M2, add 2 flats" -> OK
-> exit Score Manager.

Guitar 3 now appears as written in G major
but plays back in A, though incorrectly an
octave above concert pitch.

4. Use the Expression tool to create "Capo:
II" and place it at the start of guitar 3.


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Peter Thomsen
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:19 pm

1) Guitar is often notated as a transposing instrument, in octave transposition - so that Concert Pitch is an octave below Written Pitch.
When a such guitar is notated in D transposition, the Concert Pitch is a minor 7th below the Written Pitch.

2) Sometimes the octave transposition is avoided by, instead using a special clef.
The glyph is the usual G clef symbol, but with an 8 below it.
(This {8va G clef} is also used for notating the tenor staff in a choir)
When a such guitar is notated in D transposition, the Concert Pitch is a major 2nd above the Written Pitch.

Take a good look at the two attached Finale documents.

Notation and playback is correct in both documents (if I am not mistaken).
Attachments
Guitar trio - octave transposition.musx
(13.58 KiB) Downloaded 76 times
Guitar trio - CP equals WP.musx
(13.57 KiB) Downloaded 71 times
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

User avatar
Djard
Posts: 916
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:23 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Djard » Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:38 pm

Thanks for responding. I understand that guitar is written an octave above its CP.

When using the Key Signature tool in the toolbar, both the key and the pitch in playback change; but when I use the Transposition tool in Score Manager, the key signature changes accordingly but the pitch in playback remains unchanged: thus I am able to write in G major with playback in A major, albeit an octave higher. See the attached document.

However, if I use the 8vb clef, the Transposition tool in Score Manager also changes the pitch in playback.

I unsuccessfully tried selecting violin as the instrument and renaming it as guitar. Is there no way in Finale to have a piece play back a tone lower than written?
Attachments
Mr. Scruffins (A).musx
(247.56 KiB) Downloaded 77 times

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:35 pm

I'm not sure why that would be, but you shouldn't use the 8vb clef for guitar, since the octave transposition is implied (just like you wouldn't use it for double bass). Do it all with the transposition.

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Peter Thomsen
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:35 pm

Djard wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:38 pm
… Is there no way in Finale to have a piece play back a tone lower than written? …
You probably mean “have a piece play back a minor 7th lower than written”.

That is what I did in my first attached document (= Guitar trio - octave transposition.musx).

See the attached Finale document where I have done the same staff transposition (displaying Written Pitch a minor 7th above Concert Pitch).
Attachments
Mr. Scruffins (A) - fixed.musx
(242.83 KiB) Downloaded 66 times
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

User avatar
Djard
Posts: 916
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:23 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Djard » Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:36 pm

Ah! I see now. Unlike the other two options for transposition, the one in Score Manager permits independent control the key signature, notation and pitch for payback.

Key Signature: Other
Simplify key: Yes
Interval: 6, Key Alter: -2

That did the trick. Thank you for the valuable help.

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