Need help transposing pitch without altering the key

[Djard]

I am able to assign an independent key signature to a guitar part with capo on the 2nd fret, so that the notation is in C major but the concert pitch is preserved, playing back a major 2nd higher (D major). I firstly use the Key Signature tool to transpose the guitar track up to D major then in Score Manager, from the "Transposition" drop-down menu, choose "Other" and set as follows (ignoring the Bb that is misleading):

(Bb) Up M2, Add 2 sharps

or...

Key Signature: Other
Simplify key: Yes
Interval: 6 (minor)
Key Alter: -2

But if I have a guitar part with capo on the 1st fret--up a minor 2nd--the notation jumps an octave, even when Chromatic is selected and set at -1. I cannot use the Expression Tool option as it does not work in my current document (editing disables the option). Can someone figure out what figures to enter for the following in Score Manager, or perhaps share a simpler method?

Interval: ?
Key Alter: ?

[Peter Thomsen]

I am able to assign an independent key signature to a guitar part with capo on the 2nd fret, so that the notation is in C major but the concert pitch is preserved, playing back a major 2nd higher (D major). I firstly use the Key Signature tool to transpose the guitar track up to D major then in Score Manager, from the "Transposition" drop-down menu, choose "Other" and set as follows (ignoring the Bb that is misleading):

(Bb) Up M2, Add 2 sharps

or...

Key Signature: Other
Simplify key: Yes
Interval: 6 (minor)
Key Alter: -2
…

If I understand you correctly, this is a guitar part so that it is plays back an octave down - right?

And this playback/notation relation is achieved via a staff transposition (= notation an octave above the Concert Pitch) - right?

And the Concert Key is D major - right?

But since there is a capo on the 2nd fret, the staff should play back a minor seventh down (not an octave down) - right?

In the guitar staff there is no need for Independent Key Signature.
By my words “Independent Key Signature” I am talking “Finale-speak”.
“Independent Key Signature” is “a Staff Tool thingy”, often used for poly-tonal playback in a multi-staff document where different staves are playing back in different keys.

Instead of Independent Key Signature the desired result can be achieved via a staff transposition (as you have found out):

1) Key Signature Tool.
Double-click the staff, and set the Key Signature to 2 sharps (= D Major).
D major is the Concert Key.

2) Staff Transposition:
Key Signature: Other
Interval: 6 (= 6 scale steps up = a seventh up)
Key Alter: -2
which is equal to
(D) Up m7, Add 2 flats

… But if I have a guitar part with capo on the 1st fret--up a minor 2nd--the notation jumps an octave, even when Chromatic is selected and set at -1. I cannot use the Expression Tool option as it does not work in my current document (editing disables the option). Can someone figure out what figures to enter for the following in Score Manager, or perhaps share a simpler method?

Interval: ?
Key Alter: ?

When the capo is on the 1st fret, the corresponding staff transposition is a Db transposition:
Key Signature: Other
Interval: 6 (= 6 scale steps up = a seventh up)
Key Alter: 5
which is equal to
(Db) Up M7, Add 5 sharps



I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again.

[Djard]

Peter, you are gifted! Your calculation works. Thank you sooooo much.

Yes, the guitar is written one octave above concert pitch; and Finale automatically assigns the pitch when a G-clef is selected for the instrument. But when writing for guitar with use of a capo in an ensemble, the staff must be set as independent, otherwise the other instruments will be transposed.

Is my understanding correct...

After changing the key signature from C to Db, which transposes the notation up a semitone, we want to change the key signature and notation back to C but keep playback in Db. So in Score Manager, the interval must be set up to the dominant 7th, which is 1 semitone apart from the tonic (Cb = dominant 7th in Db Major scale, which is 6 steps above the tonic); so enter 6. The "Key Alter" kept with 5 flats for playback in concert Db.

Interval: 6 -- In the diatonic scale of Db major, Db to Eb = 1, Eb to F = 2, F to Gb = 3, Gb to Ab = 4, Ab to Bb = 5, Bb to Cb (dom.7) = 6.
Key Alter: 5 accidentals (Key Db)

I did try setting the interval as chromatic 1 (min. 2nd), thinking the transposed C to Db would be raised back up a semitone to appear as C; but doing so displayed the C note as D##. Why does the Interval set at 1 drop the C note a 5th, down to D## (E)?

[Peter Thomsen]

Sorry about the late reply.
I have read your post several times, and it makes my brain hurt - poor me! (kidding).

… the guitar is written one octave above concert pitch; and Finale automatically assigns the pitch when a G-clef is selected for the instrument …

The “automatic” element is that Finale assigns a staff transposition (of an octave => no key change) to the guitar staff.
Finale’s solution works - but what do you need to happen if you in the Document menu select “Display in Concert Pitch“ ?
Should the notes stay in the same octave ?

FYI:
Instead of what Finale “automatically” does, you can get the same result without a staff transposition, by using an octave transposing clef (sometimes called the Guitar Clef, or the Tenor Clef).
By default the octave transposing clef uses the G clef character with a small ‘8’ below it, but you can replace the character with another font character (like e. g. the standard G Clef character, without the ‘8’).
When there is no staff transposition, the notes will stay at the same vertical position, no matter whether Display in Concert Pitch is selected or not,

It all depends on what you need.
- Do you need the G clef character without ‘8’ below it?
- Do you need the notes to stay in the same octave when you select Display in Concert Pitch ?
What-ever you need, there is at least one solution for it (actually there are two solutions with your current Finale version which also has an extra option in the Document menu: When Displaying in Concert Pitch, Keep Octave Transposition)

… when writing for guitar with use of a capo in an ensemble, the staff must be set as independent, otherwise the other instruments will be transposed …

For the Guitar staff there is no need to select Independent Key Signature - since you instead can use a staff transposition.
In that way the Guitar staff can play back in Concert Key, and display another key signature (the other instruments will not be affected) - and this is “the standard solution” for transposing instruments such as French Horn, Saxophone &c.

… Is my understanding correct …

Not quite, but you are close.

… After changing the key signature from C to Db, which transposes the notation up a semitone, we want to change the key signature and notation back to C but keep playback in Db. So in Score Manager, the interval must be set up to the dominant 7th, which is 1 semitone apart from the tonic (Cb = dominant 7th in Db Major scale, which is 6 steps above the tonic); so enter 6. The "Key Alter" kept with 5 flats for playback in concert Db …

This is where my brain hurts.
By your words “dominant 7th” you probably mean “minor 7th” which has a size of 10 chromatic half-steps - right?
I do not understand your words “1 semitone apart from the tonic”.
* Where is that semitone ???

But the Db Major scale has C natural (not Cb).
Thus the interval is a “major 7th” which has a size of 11 chromatic half-steps - right?

… Interval: 6 -- In the diatonic scale of Db major, Db to Eb = 1, Eb to F = 2, F to Gb = 3, Gb to Ab = 4, Ab to Bb = 5, Bb to Cb (dom.7) = 6.
Key Alter: 5 accidentals (Key Db) …

The Db major scale has C: {Db - Eb - F - Gb - Ab - Bb - C} - right?

When it is dealing with staff transpositions, Finale does not know anything about scales.
Instead the {interval number} is only about, how many steps the notes should be moved up/down.
A negative number means that the notes should be moved down {as many steps as the number says}.

In
Key Alter: 5
you should read the ‘5’ as ‘+5’ - meaning {Add 5 sharps, or subtract 5 flats}.

Similarly, in
Key Alter: -2
you should read the ‘-2’ as ‘{Add 2 flats, or subtract 2 sharps}.

… I did try setting the interval as chromatic 1 (min. 2nd), thinking the transposed C to Db would be raised back up a semitone to appear as C; but doing so displayed the C note as D##. Why does the Interval set at 1 drop the C note a 5th, down to D## (E)?

Oooh, my brain hurts - poor me!

I am glad that I am me, and not you.


The idea of a chromatic transposition is that the staff displays the Concert Key, but plays back transposed = the opposite of what you need.
Chromatic transposition is not what you need.
Do not go there.

[Djard]

Yes, calculating the steps in this procedure had my head spinning. But such cogitation is good for the brain as it promotes dendritic sprouting in the cortical region of the brain, and it slows neuronal pruning that comes with age.

If I click on the "Display in Concert Pitch" icon, the score gets transposed to Db Major, and five #'s appear in the key signature.

I have always preferred to use the G-clef with the 8 attached to the bottom for guitar. But over the years, for me, Finale's hatred of editing and frequent problems has me keeping everything as simple as possible. If I don't edit, all is well. But when composing, I always find myself making changes: I view composing and mixing in my studio not unlike polishing a gemstone: the more I work on it, the more polished the product. My English teacher used to say, "There is no such thing as good writing...only good rewriting."

You mention that there is no need to assign an independent key signature to an instrument with a capo. In a solo work this is true. But If I do not make the signature independent for an instrument with a capo in an ensemble, all the other instruments in the document get transposed. Am I overlooking something?

As for the major diatonic scale, where all the intervals are a tone apart--except between 3 & 4 and 7 & 8--my understanding is that the dominant 7th is obtained by lowering the 7th note by one semitone. For instance, in C major, the major 7th note is B natural. Lowering B one semitone gives the dominant 7th, which is Bb. I was taught that it is called the dominant 7th because adding the lowered 7th note in, say, a C major chord has the melodic progression wanting to go to the "middle" of the F scale. I know that the term here is confusing, since C is the dominant in F major, not Bb. But I follow the convention of calling a C7 chord a dominant 7th. Besides, Bb is as much in the middle of the F scale as is C but wants to resolve to F with more force.

1. C = Tonic
2. D = Supertonic
3. E = Mediant
4. F = Sub-Dominant
5. G = Dominant
6. A = Sub-Mediant/Relative Minor
7. B = Leading Tone (leads to C)
8. C = Tonic Octave

Thanks for clarifying the meaning of "Key Alter." I love your attention to detail. MakeMusic would do well to hire you as a consultant when publishing its "manual" that, like all manuals, is a glorified list of features. If manuals focused more on the how and less on the what, forums and tutorials on the Internet might not exist.

[Peter Thomsen]

… You mention that there is no need to assign an independent key signature to an instrument with a capo. In a solo work this is true. But If I do not make the signature independent for an instrument with a capo in an ensemble, all the other instruments in the document get transposed. Am I overlooking something? …

Yes.
You are missing that Finale has the feature {Staff Transposition} which can make a staff play back in one key (Concert Key), and display in another key (Written Key).
The other staves will not be affected (= the other staves will not get transposed to another key).
This is the “standard solution” for notating an ensemble’s transposing instruments, such as French Horn, Saxophone &c.

An example:

You could have an ensemble with
- Flute
- Oboe
- Clarinet
- French Horn (in F)
- Bassoon
(this ensemble is also known as a Wind Quintet)

In this ensemble the French Horn is the only transposing instrument.
If the key signature is F major (= 1 flat), then all the 5 instruments will play back in {1 flat}, but the French Horn staff will display the key of C major (= no flats), and the French Horn notes will display a fifth above the Concert Pitch.
The other instruments will not get transposed.

[Djard]

Can you tell me where I can find the "{Staff Transposition}" tool that lets me keep the notation unaltered but play back in a different pitch, such as one semitone higher?

I selected the staff -> Staff tool -> Utilities -> Transpose -> selected "Up" -> Other -> selected the Interval as 1. The playback pitch does not change. If I click on the Selection Tool -> right-click in the staff system -> Transpose and do the same, that fails also. If I enter 2, the notation is altered and playback pitch is 1 tone higher. Sorry to be a poor student; I need the actual steps.

The method you describe sounds easier than using the one that works for me in Score Manager. But I cannot find the "Staff Transposition" tool.

[Peter Thomsen]

To find info about a Finale dialog box, open the online manual.

In the Search field, type the name of the dialog box.
Then, hit Return.

By typing ‘staff transposition’ in the Search field I got to this page in the online manual:

http://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/Fina ... TRNDLG.htm

By The Way:
The manual describes two ways to get to the Staff Transpositions dialog box.
But there is also a third way:
You can also get there by defining a custom staff style:
Staff Tool.
Staff menu > Define Staff Styles…
You get to the dialog box Staff Styles.
In the pane Appearance, next to Transposition, click the button {Select…}

[Djard]

Thanks for the valuable help.