Piano composers, unite!

Post your wishes for future features in Finale here.

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Blacklab88
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Piano composers, unite!

Post by Blacklab88 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:01 pm

Really? There has to be more piano music written than any other type, right? Why are the piano-specific functions in Finale so convoluted and unhelpful? Please think about this and implement.
Pedal markings take WAY too long to choose and place. And some other things require ridiculously long workarounds.
For example, an apreggiated (as in guitar strum) chord takes these steps to notate:

Post by Djard » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:00 am

You can also use the following steps, which are out of a manual I've written. The steps seem lengthy but they really only takes a few seconds to complete, unless you wish to define custom playback .

• Create Strum Marks:

Draw vertical lines, pointing up or down to indicate the
strum, with or without playback.

1. Enter the chords to strum.
2. Smart Shape Tool (upper icon menu) -> hold down "Ctrl"
key and click on "Custom Line Tool" ("?" icon in the
palette).
3. Scroll down and select straight line with arrow at one
end, pointing either left or right.
4. Double-click and hold down mouse button on second click.
5. Drag line up or down next to the chord, tilting the line
slightly left or right to determine the direction of the
arrow.

NOTE: Alternatively, you may place short lines with the
arrow heads above or below the chords if the longer
ones next to the chords appear to clutter the part.

6. Zoom in and drag handles for fine adjustment.

NOTE: The following steps add playback.

7. Articulation tool (upper icon menu).
8. Click on bottom note of chord -> scroll down and select
vertical wavy line.
9. Drag handles to superimpose the marking over the existing
directional strum marking.

NOTE: The length of the wavy line does not affect the
playback: the full chord will be played in an
arpeggiated fashion.

10. Right-click on handle of first chord in the rasgueo
that is strummed in direction of bass to treble ->
Edit Articulation Definition.
11. From "Playback Effect" drop-down menu, select "Change
Attack" set as follows:

- Top Note Value: 0
- Bottom Note Value: -256

NOTE: The units are 1024ths of a 1/4 note: -256 = start
chord roll 1/16th note duration early. The greater
the negative number, the earlier the arpeggiation
of the chord will start in playback. If you check
the "Values are percentages" box, a setting of -100%
would have the chord begin arpeggiation whatever the
value of the notes in the chord; e.g., if the chord
is written to ring for 1/16th note duration then a
setting of 100% would have the chord begin the
arpeggiation 1/16th note duration before top note,
which is the location of the chord in the measure.

NOTE: Do not set values greater than interval between
the arpeggiated chord and the preceding or
following notes; otherwise a conflict will occur.

12. OK -> repeat last two steps for the next two chords that
are strummed in the direction of bass to treble.
13. Right-click on handle of fourth chord in the rasgueo
that is strummed in direction of treble to bass ->
Edit Articulation Definition.
14. From "Playback Effect" drop-down menu, select "Change
Duration" and set as follows:

- Top Note Value: -256
- Bottom Note Value: 0

15. Right-click on handle -> uncheck "Show" or you may
leave the wavy line superimposed over the straight lines
if you wish; but make sure the placement of the vertical
wavy line does not obscure the pointing arrow.
Windows 7 and Windows 10; Finale 25, Cubase 10 for Windows; Pencil and paper

Re: Piano composers, unite!

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Michel R E
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by Michel R E » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:25 pm

an arpeggiated chord takes one step: press R while in the articulation chord, for "roll".
I have NO idea what you're going on about, but quoting Djard for anything is the last thing you want to do... he ignores ALL advice he's given, and insists on doing things in the most obtuse and round-about way possible, regardless if there's an easier way to do it in Finale.

For pedals, just assign metatools to them. It's stupidly easy.
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zuill
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by zuill » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:33 pm

I believe the need is for a Roll articulation with an up arrow, and one with a down arrow. Unfortunately, with Finale, for rolls with up or down arrows, one must use a character available in fonts other than Maestro. And, those are not stretchable. So, it does take more work and the options are limited and convoluted.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Blacklab88
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by Blacklab88 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:00 pm

Hmmm....didn't know you could assign Metatools to a Smartline selection. Will figure it out. The directional strum markings still look convoluted to me.
My pedal markings are pretty complex. I don't use those archaic pedal markings that look like sheep.
And I don't come to this forum often enough to know what the various personalities are. I usually only go to forums where people are polite to each other.
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David Ward
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by David Ward » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:57 pm

Blacklab88 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:00 pm
… … I don't use those archaic pedal markings that look like sheep… …
My mind boggles! As it happens, I live surrounded by sheep but none have ever made me think of pedal markings…

On topic, yes one can assign Metatools to Smartlines.
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HaraldS
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by HaraldS » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:25 pm

Blacklab88 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:01 pm
Why are the piano-specific functions in Finale so convoluted and unhelpful? Please think about this and implement.
Pedal markings take WAY too long to choose and place. And some other things require ridiculously long workarounds.
For example, an apreggiated (as in guitar strum) chord takes these steps to notate:

Post by Djard » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:00 am
Well, you quote a post from 2012. That's seven years ago. That's ages in software development, even if we talk about Finale ;).

You write that you use Finale 25. This gives you Metatools, Hotkeys and FinaleScript as a start to speed up your work. Get to know the PlugIn collections by Jari and Tobias. By using Autohotkey and/or JWLua, there are even more powerful tools available which significantly increase working speed.

Here's an example how JWLua can be used to insert pedal markings.
Finale 3.0-25.5, german edition, Windows 7
mostly hardware synths/keys, Cubase 7 / trombonist, pianist, conductor / Recklinghausen, Germany

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motet
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by motet » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:53 pm

Using JWLua is a tall order unless you're a serious software type.

Blacklab88
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by Blacklab88 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:11 am

Thanks for the help, everybody. Greatly appreciated.
I'll be back!
And David Ward, take a look at those archaic pedal symbols. When I took piano lessons at age 6, I couldn't understand why there were little sheep all over the page. Followed by stars. Check it out.
Windows 7 and Windows 10; Finale 25, Cubase 10 for Windows; Pencil and paper

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HaraldS
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by HaraldS » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:16 am

motet wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:53 pm
Using JWLua is a tall order unless you're a serious software type.
Well, I think I wouldn‘t count as a serious software guy, as I don‘t have any formal/academic education in that field. I teach trombone and piano and work as a freelancing musician. But I do code since my youth, and this applies to quite some musicians, as far as my experience goes. JWLua isn‘t easy, but in my opinion comparable to Autohotkey or VisualBasic or the like and thus feasible for the average tech savvy.
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gogreen
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by gogreen » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:07 pm

I live surrounded by sheep but none have ever made me think of pedal markings…
Does that mean that some of the music you hear is baaaaaaaad?

Sorry. I couldn't help myself on this one.
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miker
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by miker » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:40 am

Only when a composer tries to ram it down our throats...
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gogreen
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by gogreen » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:43 am

Ewe said it!
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zuill
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by zuill » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:31 am

You're all trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

Regarding the Ped. symbol, I never saw it as sheep's horns. I am so used to the symbols, and prefer them over the lines with spikes. However, one of my students asked, years ago, why it kept saying Leo, then an asterisk, then Leo followed by another asterisk. I had to get him to look closely that it was a fancy font that spelled Ped. Oh well. For me it was never anything but a pedal indication, not Leo. And definitely not sheep.

Zuill
Windows 7, Finale 2011-v26.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Blacklab88
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by Blacklab88 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:02 pm

Ha!
Okay. Maybe I needed glasses, but this looks like a lamb lying down. Of course, I live in a place where you actually SEE lambs, not just lamb chops.
pedal marking.png
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David Ward
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by David Ward » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:13 pm

Well, I suppose at a vivid stretch of the imagination, a Lacaune lamb might just…

There's no resemblance to the various Shetland, Suffolk, Cheviot, Texel cross-breads we mostly favour here that even my sometimes wacky imagination can engender. (I live right in the middle of a farm in Northern Scotland on which around 2,000 of this year's lambs are out for autumn grazing.)
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Blacklab88
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by Blacklab88 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:24 am

Ha! I was 6 at the time and kind of got by without reading notes until my teacher figured that out, so I imagine that images spoke more to me. Definitely a lamb..... :D
Seriously, the symbols don't work at all for modern pedaling...way too ambiguous.
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miker
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by miker » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:41 pm

Seeing the symbol enlarged like that, I can certainly see a ram, with curving horns. It looks more like a sheep than much of 20th century art looks like anything...

The lamb may lay down with the lion, but it won't sleep very soundly...
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Blacklab88
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by Blacklab88 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:58 pm

Or as a ***** owner said about gamblers: "When a lion and a lamb are locked in a room together, sometimes the lamb comes out....but not very often."
By the way, I've assigned my most-used pedal markings to metatools, and my process has speeded up a lot. I just keep a card with drawings of the pedal markings and their assignment on my computer desk. Thanks to all the forum members for not throwing me out!

Just looked at my post. Why is c a s i n o blocked out?
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Blacklab88
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by Blacklab88 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:32 pm

So I was going along merrily using my pedal metatools, left Finale for a day, loaded up an old file to work on, and when I went to use the metatools I had programmed, they had all been replaced with the defaults. What did I do?
Thanks.
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Peter Thomsen
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:04 am

Blacklab88 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:32 pm
So I was going along merrily using my pedal metatools, left Finale for a day, loaded up an old file to work on, and when I went to use the metatools I had programmed, they had all been replaced with the defaults. What did I do?
Thanks.
Your pedal metatools are document specific, not program specific.

To get your metatools in all new documents, add the metatools to the template you use, when you create new documents.
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Blacklab88
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Re: Piano composers, unite!

Post by Blacklab88 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:26 pm

Thanks, Peter.
This means that for any older score I open to edit or re-do, I have to create new pedal metatools.
Ah, well....ours is not to reason "why", eh?
Windows 7 and Windows 10; Finale 25, Cubase 10 for Windows; Pencil and paper

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