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Two big issues from Score to Parts

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Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Agostomortal » Wed May 16, 2018 7:45 pm

I have use Finale for many years but not written many scores for +17 musicians.
Creating parts from the score was a royal nightmare as many manual edits were needed per individual parts, even when I already knew to set up a "parts" file after finishing the arrangement, in addition to a "playback" file (for audio reference) and a "score" file, for the neat visual of the score.
I find the whole extract parts process extremely inconvenient, ineffective and inefficient.
The two main issues I had are:

1. No multi-measure rest were in place in any part after generating the parts from the score (with the same time signature and whole rests)
Generate Multi measure was selected in the manage part generation and the whole score were converted to "change to default whole rest" in the plug in menu. Zero.

2. I use rehearsal letters for many reasons, as it helps with the process or arranging and organization, every 8 bars or section.
Many instruments, specially in the rhythm section (piano, bass, drums) would benefit from repeat signs in their parts. The problem occurs when I need to put a repeat over two rehearsal letters: the second letter just disappears and moves everything one letter, effectively erasing one letter and loosing "sync" and place in measure numbers (and rehearsal letters) with the score. This does not make any sense, and I could not find a way (or tutorial) to solve it yet.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby motet » Wed May 16, 2018 8:21 pm

Generating parts should create multimeasure rests. You must be doing something wrong.

By "repeat" do you mean the % symbol or repeat signs |: ....
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Peter Thomsen » Wed May 16, 2018 8:31 pm

Agostomortal wrote:… I find the whole extract parts process extremely inconvenient, ineffective and inefficient …

Is it really necessary to extract parts?

Finale has had linked parts since Finale 2007.
Can you not use linked parts, instead of extracted parts?
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby motet » Wed May 16, 2018 8:59 pm

I assumed they meant linked parts, but either way, they're doing something wrong, so maybe we can find out what.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Agostomortal » Wed May 16, 2018 10:55 pm

Yes, I have checked Create multi-measure rests, as I explained and used the plug in "Change to default whole rest" as it was recommended somewhere here when setting multi measure rests. (see picture)
I don't know about linked parts. I go to Documents/ edit score or edit parts.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby motet » Wed May 16, 2018 11:23 pm

Those are linked parts. Extracted parts are where you create separate files.

It's hard to say what's wrong without seeing your file. But what you're experiencing is not common.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Agostomortal » Thu May 17, 2018 2:28 am

Yes, linked parts that are available as part of the document (score) and then I "extract" from the score once edited.
This is what I am talking about.
PIC 1: from a nice score, (sax section)..edit part.. to...
PIC 2: alto sax part with no multi measure rest, horrible giant measure numbers, added letters that are not in the score, articulations that randomly appear below the note but are all above the notehead in the score, and the list goes on and on.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby zuill » Thu May 17, 2018 4:22 am

Pictures don't tell much. A Finale file would tell a lot more. It just looks like you haven't learned how to set up a score with linked parts properly. If we can examine a file, we can probably tell you what needs to be done.

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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Agostomortal » Thu May 17, 2018 4:50 am

motet wrote:Generating parts should create multimeasure rests. You must be doing something wrong.

By "repeat" do you mean the % symbol or repeat signs |: ....

Yes, something is definitely wrong because the multi rest don't appear.
I mean repeat signs over 2 sections with rehearsals letters (i.e: A, B)
For the instruments that play something different on each section (A and B) or the score, its ok to not have repeat signs, but for piano, bass and drums that are reading the same chord changes on sections A and B, the edit part should allow me to create a repeat sign on the part in section A, delete section B altogether and keep the following section intact (letter C) but the problem is that as soon as I create the repeat and erase the B section, letter C becomes B and the measure numbers are all not correlated.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby zuill » Thu May 17, 2018 4:56 am

In order to have repeat signs in a part but not in the score, one would have to extract the part and do it there. I prefer not to do it that way, as things like rehearsal letters and measure numbers become problematic. I prefer to just write the changes out again.

I have found in rehearsal a waste of time if some players have repeat signs and some don't. It is an unnecessary distraction when time is of the essence.

For the rehearsal letters, you can manually restart the section at the next letter by right-clicking he handle and choosing the needed offset. So you can have A then C if needed.

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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Peter Thomsen » Thu May 17, 2018 1:25 pm

Agostomortal wrote:Yes, linked parts that are available as part of the document (score) and then I "extract" from the score once edited …

Probably there is no need to “extract” the linked parts.
Instead I would finish the layout in the linked part, and then print the linked part (or export the part as a PDF file).

Agostomortal wrote:… I mean repeat signs over 2 sections with rehearsals letters (i.e: A, B)
For the instruments that play something different on each section (A and B) or the score, its ok to not have repeat signs, but for piano, bass and drums that are reading the same chord changes on sections A and B, the edit part should allow me to create a repeat sign on the part in section A, delete section B altogether and keep the following section intact (letter C) but the problem is that as soon as I create the repeat and erase the B section, letter C becomes B and the measure numbers are all not correlated.

As Zuill points out, having repeat signs only in some parts is probably a bad idea that wastes important rehearsal time.

I would not do it, but it can be done in the linked part.
In the Page Layout menu, de-select the option “Avoid margin Collisions”.
This step allows negative values in the system margins.
Thus you can position the system(s) with section B outside the right page edge.
In that way section B will not print, but it will still play back correctly.

Around section A you can add repeat bars that do not play back.

Staff styles can be different between score and parts.
Thus the repeat bars around section A can show in the part, but not in the score.

I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Agostomortal » Thu May 17, 2018 5:15 pm

Thank you guys, this gives me some options

Rehearsal letters and repeat signs on parts:
I prefer repeat signs on a piano part, specially for solos with backgrounds and have 3-4 pages over a 6-7 page part any day, specially in jazz.
In my mind, seeing the repeat and seeing the next section skipping a letter is self explanatory but I would make a note on the repeat or try to recreate a similar expression sign with the missing letter (B) and put it next to the rehearsal mark A.
I was finding a way around by hiding the system B and move the next over after creating the repeat on A, but I was having trouble because I had the margin collisions on, so I was not moving system B to the side. Now I can have C come over next to A in place of the B system after erasing. Great tip about margin collision! thanks Peter. ( I don't need to keep playback capabilities in the parts at this point)
Also, Zuil, great tip on the right click on the rehearsal letter too! that allows me to erase B and keep C as C in the parts and not D but this does not help with measure numbers that are now not correlated to the score. Therefore is not a viable solution. Maybe I have to do the same with measure numbers and start a new sequence?
At this point when it comes to rehearsal letters with necessary repeats on parts, and specially not having a real solution, even a time consuming one involving a lot of editing on the parts. I would next time use a longer rehearsal mark of 16 bars A, and for rehearsal purposes use the measure numbers that are there every bar. This is still a partial solution that would not allow me to make longer repeats of solo sections.

MULTI-MEASURE REST on parts: still trying to find out why they are not present automatically. In the post above I put the picture that shows that I checked what is necessary for the parts to have those in but with no luck,

thanks guys!
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby oldmkvi » Thu May 17, 2018 5:37 pm

I think at each new Rehearsal Letter, the First Bar should show the actual Measure being repeated.
Especially when the Letters appear at the beginning of a Stave.
I'm sure I read that Here, esp about Chord Symbols, don't start a new staff with a repeat sign.
If Repeats Only goes on very long, one could lose track of what is actually being repeated.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Agostomortal » Thu May 17, 2018 5:52 pm

oldmkvi wrote:I think at each new Rehearsal Letter, the First Bar should show the actual Measure being repeated.
Especially when the Letters appear at the beginning of a Stave.
I'm sure I read that Here, esp about Chord Symbols, don't start a new staff with a repeat sign.
If Repeats Only goes on very long, one could lose track of what is actually being repeated.


I don't understand: "First Bar should show the actual Measure being repeated.
Especially when the Letters appear at the beginning of a Stave"
and: "esp about Chord Symbols, don't start a new staff with a repeat sign."
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby oldmkvi » Thu May 17, 2018 7:33 pm

OK, for example If repeat signs are used from Letter A through Letter C, let's say,
Letter B and C should have the actual measure being repeated in the first bar of that section,
then going back to the Repeat sign from the 2nd measure.
Having to play multiple repeats without seeing the original measure again makes it easy to get lost,
or simply play it wrong.
At least, that's what I do.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Peter Thomsen » Thu May 17, 2018 8:24 pm

Agostomortal,

I think that this is a misunderstanding between you and oldmkvi.
You are both talking about “repeat signs”, but in different meanings.

By “repeat signs” you mean (forward and backward) Repeat Bars.

By “repeat signs” oldmkvi means “One-Bar Repeat”s.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Agostomortal » Thu May 17, 2018 8:32 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:Agostomortal,

I think that this is a misunderstanding between you and oldmkvi.
You are both talking about “repeat signs”, but in different meanings.

By “repeat signs” you mean (forward and backward) Repeat Bars.

By “repeat signs” oldmkvi means “One-Bar Repeat”s.


That seems to be the case Peter, Thanks.
now back to my original post, I still need to resolve both issues.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby motet » Thu May 17, 2018 8:35 pm

My opinion is that if some parts have repeats and others don't, you're asking for trouble. Also, the part should match the score.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Agostomortal » Fri May 18, 2018 2:32 pm

Nevermind!
Last edited by Agostomortal on Fri May 18, 2018 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby oldmkvi » Fri May 18, 2018 2:36 pm

not ANOTHER misteak???
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Agostomortal » Sat May 19, 2018 10:50 pm

Ok, I would like to bring this post to a close,
I am able to deal with repeat bars in parts and not in the score, without messing rehearsal letters nor measure numbers.
The issue of the multi measure rest I can't get around.
I am doing what I supposed to do, setting up the parts and score the way it supposed to be.
I started with the jazz band from the new document setup wizard.
I then copied parts from an old arrangement done in 2009 with 5 horns, just a few bars here and there to get me started.
Is it possible that some of this copy past from an old document is preventing me from getting automatic multi measure rests in the parts?
We are talking about 17 musicians here, I need to make this happen as editing manually every part is a royal waste of time.
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Peter Thomsen » Sat May 19, 2018 10:57 pm

Agostomortal wrote:… The issue of the multi measure rest I can't get around.
I am doing what I supposed to do, setting up the parts and score the way it supposed to be.
I started with the jazz band from the new document setup wizard.
I then copied parts from an old arrangement done in 2009 with 5 horns, just a few bars here and there to get me started.
Is it possible that some of this copy past from an old document is preventing me from getting automatic multi measure rests in the parts?
We are talking about 17 musicians here, I need to make this happen as editing manually every part is a royal waste of time.

If I understand you correctly, you have found that you can create multimeasure rests via, manually editing every part, right?

I wonder whether you have tried to create multimeasure rests for all the parts “at one fell swoop”:
Edit menu > Multimeasure Rests > Create for Parts/Score…
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Re: Two big issues from Score to Parts

Postby Agostomortal » Sat May 19, 2018 11:44 pm

Yes I am able to manually create multi-measure rest in the parts.

I wonder whether you have tried to create multimeasure rests for all the parts “at one fell swoop”:
Edit menu > Multimeasure Rests > Create for Parts/Score…
[/quote]

Holy cow, yes that is it. this is what makes it happen. Thanks Peter
Very simple but I did not know this. I am glad I insisted because on my first post I stated the way I was expecting those multi measure to show up on parts:

1. No multi-measure rest were in place in any part after generating the parts from the score (with the same time signature and whole rests)
Generate Multi measure was selected in the manage part generation and the whole score were converted to "change to default whole rest" in the plug in menu. Zero.


Now to move on with the other issues in parts, but that would be on a new post.
Thanks guys.
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