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Baroque non-standard key signatures

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Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby pp272 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:03 pm

Hello all,

Another question about key signatures. In the baroque period, there was a lot of scordatura, and therefore a lot of whacky key signatures. I know how to put non-standard key signatures, and have been using finale for years.

BUT....

How can I put extremely odd - common for that period - key signatures (example images attached) into Finale? I'm running 25.5 on a Mac. As you can see in the first one, the G string is tuned up to an A, D up to E and E down to D. The scordatura isn't the problem, just showing the key signature is! A similar issue is with the second example, where there are a combination of sharps and flats.... I'm totally stumped. I wish there was a way to manually drag a flat or a sharp and place it onto the stave wherever we want it!
Attachments
Key example 2.png
Key sig example 2
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Key sig example 1.png
Example 1
Key sig example 1.png (130.48 KiB) Viewed 1004 times
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby motet » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:59 pm

Here's a document that may help ( a zipped PDF). I don't think Finale can show F# in two octaves like in your picture, though, but I could be wrong. You'll need to give the violin an independent key signature first.
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby motet » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:11 am

I was able to do this. In your bottom example above, what do the naturals mean?
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby pp272 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:20 am

motet wrote:I was able to do this. In your bottom example above, what do the naturals mean?


Because of the scordatura, the sharps only apply to the line that they are written on in the key signature, because they are cancelled out by the naturals on the lower octave. Otherwise it would sound pretty weird otherwise looking at how the violin sonata is written.
There is no way to manually place and drag accidentals onto the stave?
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby motet » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:25 am

You can use expressions. Set the font to Maestro 24. As a matter of fact, since you're not going to get proper playback, that might be easier than the non-standard key signature route.
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby Vaughan » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:31 am

Is it Biber? Make sure you include the incipit with the string tuning (and omit the editor's continuo realisation!). With scordatura, there's no way you're going to get proper playback in Finale anyway because the notes are actually 'fingering notation', so you might as well make an expression (as Motet suggested) set to position correctly, and then place these at the beginning of every line after you've done the final layout. Since this notation is useless to anyone except the violinist playing it, why do you need to create a score? I recorded all the Biber sonatas and, instead of reading from the facsimile edition, which I'd rather have done, I notated most of the sonatas in Finale to avoid having to see both the scordatura and the editorial suggestions for the continuo realisation. The irony of a modern edition like the one you posted is that the realisation is only useful to a keyboard player who can't realise figured bass, but who needs to be reading actual pitches. If you're making an edition, I'd suggest either imitating the facsimile (as an exercise in unusual notational techniques in Finale) or making a practical version with the sounding pitches.
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby Peter Thomsen » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:23 am

Vaughan wrote:… With scordatura, there's no way you're going to get proper playback in Finale anyway because the notes are actually 'fingering notation' …

Actually there is a way to get proper playback, by using multiple layers, each layer with its own transposition.
But we can discuss playback another time.

It sounds like p272’s issue is the layout, not the playback.
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby David Ward » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:20 pm

Vaughan wrote:… … … I recorded all the Biber sonatas … … …

Are these recordings available as commercial CDs (or if not, downloads)? I'd be interested in having them.
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby Vaughan » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:30 pm

Yes, I believe they were produced by Brilliant Classics. I'm afraid I don't have much more info than that. We decided to use harpsichord and organ (often simultaneously) for the continuo.
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby motet » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:24 am

I found the recording online. You are Igor Ruhadze, Vaughan, or are otherwise in I Violini Capricciosi?
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby Vaughan » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:18 am

That’s right. Igor is the violinist, Felicity Goodwin (my wife) is the organist and I played harpsichord. BTW, tuning keyboard instruments for those works really requires some creative manipulation!
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby motet » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:38 am

Very cool! I'll listen. I have Andrew Manze recording, but I don't think it's complete.
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby David Ward » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:18 am

I've found the CDs here https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/search?search_query=Igor+Ruhadze and will include it (package of 5 CDs) in my next order from Presto.
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Re: Baroque non-standard key signatures

Postby Vaughan » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:00 am

Hope you enjoy them!
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