Is it correct to notate like this?

The place for beginner Finale users. ("How do I...")

Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker

Post Reply
detlef
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 9:23 am
Finale Version: Finale 2014
Operating System: Windows

Post by detlef » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:15 am

Hello
Is this clear and acceptable or is there a better way to notate this?
Thanks in advance
Attachments
1.jpg
1.jpg (22.2 KiB) Viewed 8270 times


User avatar
miker
Posts: 5993
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:07 pm

Unless there is a reason for doing what you've done, I would rather see the layer 2 notes with stems up. Or just swap layer one and layer two in that measure. Remember, it all prints in black!
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

RMK
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:24 pm
Finale Version: 25.2
Operating System: Windows

Post by RMK » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:13 pm

Instead of a double-dotted half note, I would have notated this as a half tied to a dotted quarter.

User avatar
Michel R E
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Michel R E » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:40 pm

As RMK said, tied half note to dotted quarter for layer two.
I I wouldn't alter the stem direction since it obviously shows a voice crossing, however, I would move the whole note in the first measure away from the stem of the layer 2 note to make it clear that it is not sharing that stem. Move it only enough to leave a small space between the whole note and the stem.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:43 pm

I don't see that this is crossing voices, necessarily. If not, then the stems should be up. I think Mike's suggestion about switching the layers will be the best option.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
Michel R E
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Michel R E » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:08 pm

I am going on the presumption that the original poster wants the 1st G to go up to the E, and the D# to go down to the G in the next measure. Ergo, voice crossing, common enough in orchestral writing.
Without the larger context of the passage it's impossible to say whether in this case the voice crossing is justified or not, or even necessary.
But let's go on the presumption that it is.
The answer to the original post remains the same: turn the double-dotted half into tied notes, and simply separate the 1st whole note from the stem of the half note.

If this is piano writing, then sure, switch the layers and stem directions, because it makes no sense to have a notated voice crossing that will make no audible difference.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:24 pm

I can agree about the voice crossing regarding stem direction and needing a gap between the stem and the whole note. This looked more like piano writing.

My guess, because it has occasionally happened to me, that the poster put in all the whole notes first, then proceeded to the different rhythm. Considering that most of the notation appears to be in layer 1, then the next choice, layer 2, would be chosen. However, the default settings are for stems up layer 1, stems down Layer 2.

Since the poster is posting in the forum for Beginners, I'm guessing that settings like layer stem position is less known to a beginner, so this common scenario can lead to confusion about whether Finale is notating in the customary way, which is not necessarily the case. I believe the default settings assume a user would put the upper voice in Layer 1 and the lower voice in layer 2.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:45 pm

Not enough context to know if it's voice crossing, but absent more I would think the D# leads to the E rather than dropping an augmented fifth to replace a note that's already in another voice. Perhaps detlef is asking about the double-dotted half note.

detlef
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 9:23 am
Finale Version: Finale 2014
Operating System: Windows

Post by detlef » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:01 pm

Hey thanks for the replies. Yes, it is intended as piano score.
So this is a better option then?
Attachments
2.jpg
2.jpg (21.49 KiB) Viewed 8195 times

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:13 pm

Or the attached.

Zuill
Attachments
Layer Demo.jpg
Layer Demo.jpg (5.97 KiB) Viewed 8194 times
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

RMK
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:24 pm
Finale Version: 25.2
Operating System: Windows

Post by RMK » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:27 pm

I prefer the OP's revision because you can see the middle of the measure.

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:31 pm

It just looks cluttered to me. I guess the context would help to decide. What's going on in the treble staff?

Zuill

P.S.: Bridging the mid-point of a measure is more common than not in the classical piano literature. Also, double dots or extremely common.
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
miker
Posts: 5993
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:17 am

As a singer, the OP’s revision is more clear. But if piano rules are more applicable, Zuill wins!
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

User avatar
HaraldS
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:46 am
Finale Version: 25.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by HaraldS » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:49 am

detlef wrote:Hey thanks for the replies. Yes, it is intended as piano score. So this is a better option then?
Yes, definitely. Clear voice leading is always a plus.

The visibilty of the measure's two halves (your solution) as opposed to Zuill's solution is another topic. Both are good and perfectly redable, but my impression is I do see yours more often than Zuill's. At least here in Germany. Neither Vinci nor Chlapik (the two who reside on my bookshelf) do discuss that.

Harald
Finale 3.0-25.5, German edition, Windows 7
trombonist, pianist, conductor / Recklinghausen, Germany

User avatar
David Ward
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:48 pm
Finale Version: F 25.5 & 26.3
Operating System: Mac

Post by David Ward » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:12 am

FWIW I like the double dots.

I suppose if the music is rigidly beat driven, then showing the middle of the bar is a good idea; but if it is expressive and potentially slightly flexible, I see nothing wrong with the double dots, which also avoid the clutter of a tie.
Finale 25.5 & 26.3
Mac 10.13.6 & 10.14.6

User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:16 pm

David Ward wrote:FWIW I like the double dots.

I suppose if the music is rigidly beat driven, then showing the middle of the bar is a good idea; but if it is expressive and potentially slightly flexible, I see nothing wrong with the double dots, which also avoid the clutter of a tie.
I agree.
By avoiding the tie you can follow the (quite pleasant) principle of {1 sounding tone <=> 1 written note}
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

detlef
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 9:23 am
Finale Version: Finale 2014
Operating System: Windows

Post by detlef » Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:54 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:I agree.
By avoiding the tie you can follow the (quite pleasant) principle of {1 sounding tone <=> 1 written note}
thanks good rule to keep in mind.
This is what's going on in the top staff
Attachments
3b.jpg
3b.jpg (72.03 KiB) Viewed 8090 times

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
Finale Version: Finale 25.5
Operating System: Mac

Post by John Ruggero » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:50 pm

Music notation is a language of many nuances. All the versions are "correct" but the best choice might also hinge on the intended use and situation. For example:

If this were an orchestral part, showing the middle of the measure is safest since the musicians might be sight-reading and error-avoidance is at a premium.

Were this educational piano music, showing the middle of the measure would be best, unless this were an exercise in double-dotted notes.

If a concert piano solo, the double dotted notes would be OK to simplify the notation especially if something more rhythmically defining were going on in another voice.

I think that Zuill's version would only be used to show something special, perhaps in another voice. But this is not the case in your piece.

There is also the genre. Your piece seems to be in a semi-popular style. Double-dotted notes might be considered esoteric in this style.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com

"The better the composer, the better the notation."

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:02 pm

I respectfully disagree about my example, from many years and examples from traditional literature.

But then, this is a forum, and disagreements are expected.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
David Ward
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:48 pm
Finale Version: F 25.5 & 26.3
Operating System: Mac

Post by David Ward » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:57 pm

John Ruggero wrote:… … …If this were an orchestral part, showing the middle of the measure is safest since the musicians might be sight-reading and error-avoidance is at a premium… … …
There are triple dots across entire bars in Bruckner symphonies. They don't cause a problem, even at first rehearsal (in my experience).

In the Bruckner you've got around 90 people playing fff in octave unison. A more complex texture with cross rhythms would discourage any use of triple dots.

I've never seen why in a simple meter such as 4/4 it should be necessary to show the middle of the bar (it has nil effect on my own sight-reading), but it seems to be what many prefer.
Attachments
Bruckner 9.jpeg
Bruckner 9.jpeg (230.8 KiB) Viewed 8025 times
Finale 25.5 & 26.3
Mac 10.13.6 & 10.14.6

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:36 pm

In my example, I didn't demonstrate double dots, but tying to the 4th beat, whish is extremely common. However, a double dot in the given example would be fine.

Showing the mid-point of the measure is useful in many situations, but not all. If that were important, then we would see, for example, a half tied to a quarter, followed by a quarter, instead of a dotted half followed by a quarter. That would be such a strain on the eye. if a person doesn't understand a dotted half followed by a quarter, then we're all in trouble.

Zuill

P.S.: Needing to see the mid point of a measure would mean that the first measure in my sample would be preferred to the second. I whole-heartedly disagree.
Need for Showing Measure Mid-Point Demo.jpg
Need for Showing Measure Mid-Point Demo.jpg (6.68 KiB) Viewed 8012 times
P.P.S.: My second example is a follow-up. I prefer the second measure. The first is too cluttered.
Need for Showing Measure Mid-Point Demo 2.jpg
Need for Showing Measure Mid-Point Demo 2.jpg (5.09 KiB) Viewed 8011 times
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
Finale Version: Finale 25.5
Operating System: Mac

Post by John Ruggero » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:36 pm

zuill wrote:But then, this is a forum, and disagreements are expected.
...and what make these forums so interesting and informative for all concerned.

I went looking for the through a bit of the standard solo piano literature for the rhythm in question. It was not easy to find.

Here is one showing the center of the measure from Mozart's Sonata K. 533: The right hand syncopation and left hand upper voice makes this preferable.
Mozart K 533.jpeg
Mozart K 533.jpeg (27.27 KiB) Viewed 7993 times
Here is one from Chopin's posthumous Nocturne in C# minor with the "Zuill" rhythm. Here the left hand provides the "center" so the the right hand can do the more natural thing and show the trill as a long continuous note without accentuation on the third quarter note ending with a written-out after beat.
Chopin Noct.jpeg
Chopin Noct.jpeg (23.77 KiB) Viewed 7993 times
Another reason for the tendency to use a central division of 4/4 might be that it is more "rational", given no contrary considerations, to divide the measure into halves rather than into 3/4 + 1/4.

My remark about the orchestral parts reflected my experience with A. Arnstein, who tended to use the safest notation, not knowing who would be playing the parts and when. In the case of David Ward's Bruckner example, the triple-dotted notes are clearly the preferable way to notate this and as he implies, the context presents no issues for experienced musicians. Were this situation to occur in a piece for high school band, however...
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com

"The better the composer, the better the notation."

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:54 am

Interesting that the Mozart L.H. shows the measure mid-point, but not the R.H.

So, anything goes, it appears. That's why it is so hard to really use the literature for examples. The literature is quite inconsistent.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
Finale Version: Finale 25.5
Operating System: Mac

Post by John Ruggero » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:25 pm

zuill wrote:Interesting that the Mozart L.H. shows the measure mid-point, but not the R.H.
As I mentioned, the middle of the measure is intentionally obscured in the right hand because it is syncopated and only an elaborate version of the rhythm: quarter-half-quarter. The left hand does the job of clarifying the middle of the measure, just as the left hand does the job in the Chopin excerpt.

I wouldn't agree that "anything goes" or that these composers are being inconsistent. They are using notation in quite appropriate ways to deal with complex situations.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com

"The better the composer, the better the notation."

Post Reply