Wouldn't it be great if Finale did what I wanted it to do?

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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:08 pm

I very much dislike software that makes its own decisions contrary to what I told it to do. Finale has a long and very rich history of doing whatever it pleases, regardless of the commands given.
Latest example is as shown in the image: I copied (dragged and dropped) the selected two measures onto two staves above. Lo and behold, Finale added an extra slur (the one below the notes) that isn't present in the selection and shouldn't be there either.
Why and how does Finale do this? It is so very cumbersome and tiring having to check and double check even the simplest of commands one gives to Finale…
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:13 pm

I've never come across this particular issue.
Might it be something in your file?
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:15 pm

I've seen this before. It is always caused by improper entry of the slur(s). The anchor point at the starting note and/or the final note has not been established correctly. Here's how to properly enter a slur:

√ Double click (hold mouse button on 2nd click) above the first note. The note will highlight when the anchor point is established.
√ With mouse button still depressed, drag the shape to the last note of the slur.
√ The note will highlight when the second anchor point is established - release the mouse button at that point and the slur is entered.

Try re-entering the slurs on one of the staves carefully following the above points. Then try copying them again. Any difference?
N. Grossingink
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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:53 pm

It's very odd that it makes two slurs from one, though.

Also odd that some of the notes are flatted, though I can't be sure of the clefs. Is this using an independent key signature?

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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:41 pm

Must be user error. At least, I've never seen this in many years of using FInale.

I can't imagine how else one can enter a slur other than what N Grossingink describes. The slur doesn't appear unless you double click on a note and it automatically attaches to the next note, or one of the following, which it highlights automatically as you hold down the mouse. Or one is using beat-attached slurs rather than note-attached, which I hope is not the case.

On a different aspect. I think you may have your slur tips set to the default of 0, which is not what one sees in well-engraved music. Try something else and it will look more professional. I have mine at .07 spaces.
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HaraldS
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Post by HaraldS » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:52 pm

Jay - that's a strange error. I (and probably others as well) would like to have a look into the file. Could you post a few bars showing the error? Thanks.
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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:49 pm

I have never changed the default settings of the slurs, but do no notice that Finale quite often draws slurs starting and/or ending at ludicrous distances from the note (either ludicrously distant or at no distance at all) for no apparent reason.

On system breaks Finale very often draws slurs through notes above or below the staff.

On numerous occasions Finale draws double slurs when only one is entered (and desired).

From time to time a slur starts somewhere at the top of a page (where it should start) and ends … well, nowhere, really, beyond the page, beyond the monitor even.

Other than that the software handles slurs quite professionally.
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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:00 pm

Occasionally I see slurs drawn too curved in order to avoid an accidental, say, but it's fairly rare. Certainly not what you're describing.

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miker
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Post by miker » Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:21 pm

Like the other posters, I have never experienced what you describe. Have you tried trashing the preference files?
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MikeHalloran
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Post by MikeHalloran » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:16 pm

Jay Emmes wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:08 pm
I very much dislike software that makes its own decisions contrary to what I told it to do. Finale has a long and very rich history of doing whatever it pleases, regardless of the commands...
Doesn’t a passive aggressive post like that deserves a sarcastic response? Ok, here goes:

If you think that about Finale, you’d just loooove Dorico.

Anyway, what does MM Support say about this? You’ve filed a ticket, right? I’ve never has a phrase marking create slurs on its own either.
Mike Halloran

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Anders Hedelin
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:49 pm

That happens quite often, with all programs. I once wanted to congratulate a colleague and wrote: "You really are the best", coming out as "You really are a pest". (Just joking, sorry.)
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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:11 pm

MikeHalloran wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:16 pm
You’ve filed a ticket, right?
Ha, you do indeed have a sense of humour.
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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:42 pm

It would be helpful to see the original file where copying doubled up the slur to try to find out what's causing it, since no one's apparently heard of this. Just complaining here is not very fruitful, though I agree filing a ticket is not likely to give much satisfaction. Do you still have the file exhibiting the problem?

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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:54 pm

I do have the file, but the problem -of course- has long since been solved. Since all I needed do was to remove the superfluous slur, it was not all that much of a hinderance to continue working on that document.

Unless a problem makes continuation impossible, I never stop to wait for an answer, neither from MakeMusic nor from here. I erroneously thought reporting the anomaly here might meet some appreciation.
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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:04 pm

Jay Emmes wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:54 pm
I erroneously thought reporting the anomaly here might meet some appreciation.
It might, perhaps, if we were able to reproduce the problem. But since no one else has apparently experienced it, it's hard to know what's going on and thus offer appreciation.

So, it would still be interesting to see a file demonstrating the problem, even though you've managed to remove the offending slur. If you just want to vent in the expectation of a return chorus of, "Yes, Finale is a piece of junk," though, you're probably going to be disappointed.

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:31 pm

You’ve filed a ticket, right?
:shock: :D :(

No help either as I have never seen it happen.
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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:57 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:04 pm
If you just want to vent in the expectation of a return chorus of, "Yes, Finale is a piece of junk," though, you're probably going to be disappointed.
Finale, as any piece of software, has room for improvement. One can only improve once one knows the limitations and imperfections. The constant praising of Finale and the downing of critics, as so many have done on the old forum, has held improvement of Finale back for years on end. Seriously. Look where it brought us, look where it left Finale. Most amazingly I come across the same tenor here again at times.
Tell me, how much has Finale actually improved in the last decade? Have all longstanding bugs been removed, have the imperfections reported many versions ago been remedied? I have reported dozens of simple GUI problems to MakeMusic over the years, that could have been solved with hardly any effort, but have been neglected for no apparent reason. Not to mention serious flaws, bugs and whatnots that I reported and haven't been addressed either.

I'm not saying Finale is a piece of junk, but I'm not going to say it's glorious piece of software either, because it simply isn't. We could all benefit with helping each other, rather than taking stand against each other, especially since we all can agree that the support from MakeMusic leaves much to be desired.
Simply because you can't reproduce a reported flaw, anomaly, bug or whatever, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are so many platforms, OS and Finale versions, so many setups out there, one cannot reproduce every circumstance in which a failure of the software manifests itself.
When we report what we run into, we may learn from anyone who faces or has faced the same problem and may or may not know a solution or workaround. If we don't report anything but keep praising Finale in spite of all its flaws, we learn nothing and only kid ourselves. We lose, not MakeMusic. And since we're not stock holders of MakeMusic, that doesn't make any sense at all.

Okay, my tone may at times be more cynical than may please everyone. So be it. We are all (or most, at least) adults who should be able to focus on the subject, rather than the tone of a message, I should hope.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:14 pm

Jay,
Absolutely no one here is "praising" Finale and ignoring its faults/defects.

What I'm seeing, in this specific thread, is you naming an issue you are having, people responding that they cannot reproduce that specific issue and asking you to supply a file for examination.

Your response was "I worked around it" without supplying the requested file, then proceeded to berate forum participants for not having the same issues as yourself and for supposedly only allowing praise of Finale.

That's not "cynicism".

No one is saying, nor has anyone said, that an issue doesn't exist because it can't be replicated - as you have just accused both MakeMusic and forum participants of doing.
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miker
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Post by miker » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:24 pm

And if nobody else can replicate a problem, how could it be fixed?

And I certainly don’t think that it’s the forum comments that have held Finale back. That blame goes directly to the ownership.
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Anders Hedelin
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:04 pm

Thumbs up for the members of this forum who give even the most unserious post so many serious replies!
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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:15 am

I agree mostly with what you say, Jay, and there's plenty of kvetching around here. As Michel R.E. says, seeing the file would have made the kvetching more productive. Perhaps someone would have discovered how to reproduce it--then it could be reported to Ma keMusic. They won't file a problem ticket with their staff if they can't reproduce it.

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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:48 am

Reporting the problem to MakeMusic is what I can do myself, but a long history with MakeMusic taught me that has very little to no result, which is why I turn to fora like this one, only to be greeted with exactly what I wrote. Need I say more?

No, the file doesn't help in this case, because I cannot reproduce the problem within that very file myself. Yet, it happened as the screenshot showed. And yes, double slurs happen in just about every file. And yes, slurs dropping down and off the screen have been reported more than once, here as well as on the old MakeMusic forum. So has the poor placement of slurs been discussed numerous times. Why do so many pretend none of this ever happens but to my documents? Why do some even deny their own words?

And no, I'm not a kvetch.
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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:06 pm

I've seen slurs misbehave, but no one here seems to have heard of double slurs appearing on a copy. Since you say it happens to you with every file, when it happens again, please save a copy of the file and post it here--even easier than making screen shots. There are more resources here to explore a bug than there are at MakeMusic, sadly. As I said, maybe something can be learned and you can learn to avoid the bug. Since no one else seems to have encountered this, you're likely doing something others aren't--wouldn't you like to know what that is?

Otherwise, yes Finale is buggy and can be frustrating, as I and others will agree, but merely venting your frustration is not going to gain you much.

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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:27 pm

Double slurs and the addition of an extra unwanted slur with copied notes are two different issues, as stated in my second post in this thread. The former happens without any additional editing and in just about any sizeable (orchestral) score, the latter only once (albeit in an also somewhat sizeable score). The former and all other earlier mentioned issues were reported to MakeMusic and on the old MakeMusic board. but never received a satisfying answer, not to mention solution.

As I have written here before, some years ago, I'm not very comfortable with publishing an editable document of a work in progress on a (semi-)public board — as no one should be, unless considering his/her work a creative common.

Sometimes I manage to reduce the document to a very limited fragment, but other times that also eliminates the problem at hand.

Anyhow, thank you for your continuous effort.
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Anders Hedelin
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:35 pm

Well, it's both very easy and not so easy to have an opinion on MM and their developing of Finale. The easy way is to say that so and so many issues haven't been fixed yet, and therefore to take up a rather gloomy or petulant attitude.

The not so easy way is to try to judge whether MM is going to do anything about it or not. They themselves claim they have started a thorough revision of the program. Let's see. The undeniable occurence of kvetching on this forum does not bring us any closer towards a more happy future with Finale, though.

I don't mind correcting a few bad slurs in Finale. If the program did exactly what I wanted all the time, how could I persuade my clients to pay me for more than opening a file, punching the notes and pressing the button?
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