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Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

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Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

Postby Jay Emmes » Wed May 16, 2018 9:05 pm

Finale is quite inconsequent when it comes to hairpins over a system break. Quite often Finale will allow me to position both halves of the hairpin individually in (vertical) relation to the staff, but every now and then Finale will move both halves as fixed. Where it may be necessary for a hairpin to start well below a staff at the end of a system, it's ridiculous to have it continue equally low on the next system when there are only notes on and above the staff.
The popup menu of the smart shape shows the option "Make Horizontal Over System Break" always checked (even when the app does allow me to move the have hairpins individually). How does one uncheck that option? I can't find it anywhere in the program, document or smart shape options.
Thanks in advance.
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Re: Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

Postby motet » Wed May 16, 2018 9:58 pm

I suspect "Make Horizontal Over System Break" got broken when they redid hairpins and didn't bother to test things thoroughly. Fortunately for me, I've never experienced what you describe. What if you uncheck plain "Make Horizontal"?
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Re: Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

Postby zuill » Wed May 16, 2018 10:03 pm

I think the option has to do with slanted hairpins, not ones that are already horizontal.

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Re: Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

Postby motet » Wed May 16, 2018 10:10 pm

I can't make a hairpin over a system break be slanted.
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Re: Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

Postby motet » Wed May 16, 2018 10:11 pm

Ah--"Make Horizontal over System Break" and "Maintain Angle over System Break" are either/or choices.

I don't know what makes the two halves coupled for Jay, though.
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Re: Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

Postby zuill » Wed May 16, 2018 10:22 pm

Maybe we need to see an example file to know exactly what is desired.

All I got out of the description is that the hairpin was the same distance from the staff, which is how it generally works, but the second half needs to be at a different position. Maybe I misunderstand the need.

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Re: Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

Postby motet » Wed May 16, 2018 11:19 pm

Normally when it's split like that, you can adjust the horizontal distance of the two halves independently. I do it all the time.
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Re: Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

Postby Jay Emmes » Thu May 17, 2018 12:00 am

zuill wrote:Maybe we need to see an example file to know exactly what is desired.

All I got out of the description is that the hairpin was the same distance from the staff, which is how it generally works, but the second half needs to be at a different position. Maybe I misunderstand the need.

Zuill


That's what I was trying to explain. Hope the attached images will make things even more clear. The first image (at the end of a system) shows why the (horizontal) hairpin needs to start fairly low beneath the staff.

Screen Shot 2018-05-17 at 01.51.20.png
Screen Shot 2018-05-17 at 01.51.20.png (163.84 KiB) Viewed 354 times

In the second picture (at the start of a new system) there is no need for such a distance from the staff, but Finale doesn't allow the second half of the hairpin to be moved upward without moving the first half upward as well (which is undesirable).

Screen Shot 2018-05-17 at 01.50.43.png
Screen Shot 2018-05-17 at 01.50.43.png (192.4 KiB) Viewed 354 times


EDIT: Great, now this forum fails on me and insists on showing the pictures in reverse order.
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Re: Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

Postby zuill » Thu May 17, 2018 12:10 am

Since I can move mine independently, I am guessing there is something else going on in your file that is different than mine. Can you post a Finale file for us to experiment with?

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Re: Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

Postby motet » Thu May 17, 2018 12:14 am

I always draw mine in scroll view and then possibly adjust the split halves in page view later on. In which view do you typically create yours?
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Re: Hairpin position relative to staff over system break

Postby Jay Emmes » Thu May 17, 2018 12:41 pm

There is no difference in drawing the hairpins in scroll or page view, the problematic result remains.

Yes, I can move the halves manually, but try to align the halves horizontally with other hairpins on either system. You will see that the halves are not independently movable but both assume the position of the last aligned one.
Usually, I don't mind, since it is easier to read (to my eye, at least) when all markings are close to the staff, regardless of their horizontal position relative to each other, so I wouldn't align the hairpins horizontally, but some publishers (and these days most publishers expect composers to be their own copyists) insist on aligning everything horizontally per system. Alas, as far as hairpins are concerned, Finale will not allow this: the position of one half relative to the staff has to be equal to the position of the other half on the next system (in this case; in other scores Finale has no problem with aligning the halves independently).

Why does Finale show "Make Horizontal Over System Break" as an option in the popup menu when there is nowhere to opt anything?
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