elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

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elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:13 pm

I went ahead and purchased the Perfect Layout Silver 400. I sent them a sample file that I had already run TG Tools align dynamics on. The result I got back was impressive even though I had already run the TG Tools.
I am now trying it on a really simple four part chart and it is agonizingly slow. I has been at it for nearly an hour. I'll report back with my opinion.
I have a 3.6 Ghz computer which is a bit slower than the 4 Ghz elbsound.studio recommends. But at this rate I am dead in the water. You can't use Finale while it is running the plug-in and I could have done this chart in minutes.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by Michel R E » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:32 pm

I ran it on a 9-minute long symphony movement yesterday, parts and score, and it did a wonderful job.
It did, however, take around 10 minutes.
The parts require work, however, but it's really minimal.
I haven't really figured out how to adjust things so that expressions aren't quite as far from the staff. The spacing is a bit too loose for my taste.

I'd have to say that the work I did yesterday - around 3 hours' worth - would have taken me at least 3 days to finish. Lots of fine-tuning spacing detail that I adjusted but which would have been FAR more work had I started from scratch.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:22 pm

The simple four part score finished and it looks impressive. It really does! It took PL an hour+ to do it, however. Albeit, it is a very basic score. Way too long if I am thinking of my normal scores. The linked parts did not come out good. I had to do everything as usual on them. I understand it does take longer on the first run and I also don't know what all settings I need to change if any.

My mind is thinking of putting Finale on my other desktop instead of my laptop and make it a dedicated PL machine. Finale is un-useable while PL is running so you can't work on other projects at the same time. Adobe Lightroom for instance runs operations in the BG and lets you continue to work on other stuff. That would be a nice feature for PL if it is going to be so agonizingly slow.

Proper processing of linked parts is supposed to be coming in PL v2.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:58 pm

The second file run a whole lot faster. Just minutes and it is more complex. PL did miss some stuff and messed some stuff up.
oh come all ye faithful for 2019d_PL.jpg
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by Michel R E » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:14 pm

I, for one, am eagerly awaiting PL 2.0

I'm running through the parts of this symphony movement, and PL did a pretty good job. It's really quick adjusting the details that I don't like (like the way it too often places expressions far from the staff).

So far, have all the woodwind parts and brass done, just starting the string parts. normally, at this point in the work I'd be barely halfway through the woodwinds. To be starting on violin 1 this quickly is a charm.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:42 pm

I agree. I think it is a winner, all and all. I did another score, #3. I'm happy. It is much faster now.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by elbsound » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:22 am

I am now trying it on a really simple four part chart and it is agonizingly slow. I has been at it for nearly an hour.
Can you send us the file? Maybe it is a corrupt Finale document.

Typically the plug-in needs ca. 0.03 - 0.2sec per frame. So if it is a score with 200 measures, score, four parts, four staves (=1600 frames), it should be roughly 200*(4+4)*0.125=200s=3 minutes (probably faster unless it is a very complex score).

On the test score that you sent us (score, 10 staves, 10 parts, 72 measures) you can see in the real-time video that it took only about 1 minute which was just 0.04sec per frame (=60s / (72*(10+10))

For a full orchestra score (score, 40 staves, 40 parts, 100 measures) the plug-in usually takes ca. 15-25 minutes dependent on the complexity and the processing speed of the computer.
This can be seen for example in the "PL in action real-time" video.

Also don't forget: the very first time that the plug-in is run it has to create all font metrics files for all standard fonts installed on the computer which might take about 5-20 minutes if you have lots of fonts installed. (maybe even longer if very, very many huge font files on a slow computer) The second time you run the plug-in it is much faster as this process only has to be done once.
This is also explained in the first section of the "How to use"-document:
https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/ ... uickstart0

Read about speeding up Perfect Layout in:
https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/ ... singspeed1

Also make sure to read (at least three times...) the "How to use" document:
https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/ ... plugin.php
this helps to speed up and optimize the workflow required for the plug-in.
You can, of course, do without it, but this document helps a lot in finding the most efficient and effective way of using the plug-in.

Lua is indeed much slower than other programming languages - like C++ that is used for Finale.
If you want the plug-in to become faster, you need to ask MakeMusic to give us access to their plug-in PDK, so that we can turn the code into C++.
This would make the plug-in ca. 20-60 times faster (so that 20 minutes waiting time become 30 seconds which is rather ok).
We have been trying to get that access since 2015, but haven't gotten it yet.
Currently only Jari, Robert and Tobias have the official 3rd party developer status and have access to the code.

Jan Angermüller
Elbsound.studio
Last edited by elbsound on Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:49 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by elbsound » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:41 am

ebiggs1 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:58 pm
The second file run a whole lot faster. Just minutes and it is more complex. PL did miss some stuff and messed some stuff up.

oh come all ye faithful for 2019d_PL.jpg
What did PL miss here?
Measure number collisions are not part of the features.
The feature list is available here:
https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/overview.php
ebiggs1 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:58 pm
and messed some stuff up.
Probably it was stuff that you adjusted manually before which is against the "How to use" of the plug-in.
Don't forget: it's difficult to tell "manual adjustments on purpose" from "accidentally wrong placements".
That's why the most efficient way of using the plug-in is:
1.) Enter all symbols, don't shift anything manually
2.) Run the plug-in
3.) If still necessary, do manual adjustments
This is especially recommended if you are not used to the plug-in and don't have the full feature set in mind.

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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:43 pm

I have only run 3 files so I am still learning. The second and third files run very much faster. On the last file PL took out all the cue notes. Yes, perhaps it is my lack of understanding the plug-ins abilities. None of the 3 files so far have been complex. The only thing I have to try right now are files I have already optimized by hand. I don’t see PL being a plug-in I use every day or even every week. I do have some solos and ensembles coming up. It will get a work out then.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:12 pm

... the very first time that the plug-in is run it has to create all font metrics files for all standard fonts installed on the computer which might take about 5-20 minutes if you have lots of fonts installed. (maybe even longer if very, very many huge font files on a slow computer)

It took it well over an hour. It was taking so long we left to do the grocery shopping. When we came back home it was done so I don't know exactly how long but I watched it for an hour.
I have a Dell desktop ...
i7-7700 CPU@3.6 GHz with 16 GB of RAM.

The second time you run the plug-in it is much faster as this process only has to be done once.

It was very much faster. Only a few minutes. But like I said these are not real complex files. I don't do really complex stuff very often.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by elbsound » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:25 pm

On the last file PL took out all the cue notes.
Yes, cue notes in a score are by default automatically made invisible through staff styles, so that they only appear in the parts (see the sections on cue notes in the PDF manual). You can deactivate this feature, but usually one doesn't want to have cue notes in a score.

The automatic cue handling of the plug-in is extremely powerful and saves you lots of time. It includes:
- Automatic detection of cues created with the Add Cue Notes plug-in (or any other cue on layer 2-4 with reduced sized notes)
- Automatic hiding of cue notes/cue texts in the score, so that they are only visible in the part
- Automatic creation of hiding staff styles
- Automatic scaling of cue text expressions
- Automatic shifting of the cue text to the first note of the cue
- Automatic vertical placement of the cue text
- Automatic staffline prolongation if a cue melody clef appears on a one-line staff
- Automatic alignment of cue lyrics
- Automatic clearing up of cues (hairpins, smartshapes, trills) can be removed if necessary
- Automatic correction of cue stems to all up-stem or all down-stem

Here is a video that demonstrates all these features with three different usages of cues and Perfect Layout (with its default settings):
Image
I don’t see PL being a plug-in I use every day or even every week.
Usually you would apply it to a Finale document just once. So if you are only preparing a few works each year, then you won't run it very often. But still it will save you a lot of work each time you run it.
Last edited by elbsound on Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by Michel R E » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:58 pm

I haven't found it in the PDF help file, but, how exactly does one go about making the (vertical) spacing a bit tighter?
I'm finding that tempo markings, and dynamics/hairpins are too far from the associated staves for my taste.

Is it a setting within Finale, regarding the placement of those elements?
Or is it a setting within PerfectLayout?

I also posted a question on the PerfectLayout forum, but appear to be the only person even registered there. It's been weeks and no answer yet.
(the question was "can PerfectLayout break secondary beams according to engraving rules?")
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:13 pm

"Yes, cue notes in a score are by default automatically made invisible..."

Not claiming right or wrong just noticing the default in Finale is to show cue notes but the default in PL is to hide them. Thanx, for the explanation.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:21 pm

"I also posted a question on the PerfectLayout forum, but appear to be the only person even registered there."

I also checked it out (the PL forum) with the same conclusion. Zero activity. Plus the on-line chat did not work either or at least no one replied.

I am happy I bought PL and I recommend any and all Finale users to get it. It does what MM should have made Finale do from the get go. I have run a few more files and I am learning more and more. It is a complex plug-in more so that any other any plugin you or I have used.

I find it unbelievable, perhaps unforgivable, Finale doesn't do this!
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by Michel R E » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:36 pm

Yes, I was leery at first because it's a huge chunk of change for a plugin. More than a Finale upgrade.
But I'm glad I took the plunge.
I know that once I really get a handle on how it works, it will make an even bigger difference in my workflow.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by motet » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:53 pm

ebiggs1 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:13 pm
Not claiming right or wrong just noticing the default in Finale is to show cue notes but the default in PL is to hide them.
It's only the default in Finale because cue notes are implemented as a kludge. The cue-notes plug-in should really hide the cue notes in the score, at least as an option. The labels also have been screwed up ever since expressions were redone a decade ago.

I don't think you'd ever want to show a cue in the score, unless perhaps it's a concert-band type "cue"to be optionally played in the absence of an English Horn or some such (in that case, "cue" is kind of a malaprop, but I guess that's what people call them).

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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by Michel R E » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:06 pm

At some point, MakeMusic have to really redesign the entire functionality of cue notes from the bottom up.
They shouldn't be part of a score, they shouldn't take up a layer.
A cue should be it's own thing, there should be a "special layer" in each staff that is reserved for cues, where notes inserted don't affect music spacing, that automatically place ties in the right direction (this is one of my biggest annoyances with cues: tied notes always have to be redone to put them in the right direction, and the same goes for stems)
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by elbsound » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:10 pm

I haven't found it in the PDF help file, but, how exactly does one go about making the (vertical) spacing a bit tighter?
The easiest way is to change the "Extra Vertical Collision Offset" value: it applies globally to (nearly) all vertical collision distances.
(See https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/ ... alignment2)
There are also two values for the distance of Reh./Tempo marks to the staff line and to other symbols.
By reducing these values you get a tighter spacing.
All three settings are on the Alignment tab.

You can also adjust the expression below baseline settings on Optimize tab (this effects dynamics and expressive text only):
Increase both the baseline offset and the vertical entry offset (the second one is a negative value, so increasing means getting closer to 0) to get the dynamics closer to the staff and to other symbols.

If you have the Gold edition there are many more settings (like individual distances for hairpins, expressions, articulations, etc.).
I also posted a question on the PerfectLayout forum, but appear to be the only person even registered there.
Some beta testers are registered, but no one seems to have answered. I noticed just now that the admin account didn't receive a mail on your post. But this has been updated now.
Can PerfectLayout break secondary beams according to engraving rules?
No.
There is currently only one situation where Perfect Layout can optionally create a secondary beam break:
if a tuplet is difficult to read like in this case (left: before plug-in/right: after plug-in):
Image
(see https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/ ... o-tuplets1 )
Plus the on-line chat did not work either or at least no one replied.
The live chat usually works (and I can also recommend it for finding a quick solution), but it only logs us out after we are away from the computer for at least two minutes. So if you happen to write directly after we have gone, the chat window is unfortunately still available.
But you have received a reply via email within one hour, so that's not too bad I think.

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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:44 pm

I am happy with my decision to buy PL. I am looking forward to v2 but this enough of a challenge for now. I am convinced all Finale users need it. I tried it on some very simple scores and it is well worth the purchase price for even that.
Just enter stuff click on PL and save.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:21 pm

OK after bragging on how well PL was working it did this to these two.



Page two has different sized systems too?
learning on the everlasting arms_rev_d_PL.jpg
learning on the everlasting arms_rev_d_PL.jpg (81.36 KiB) Viewed 168 times
PL told me to make the staff size smaller or reduce the percentage. I did twice and it still looks like that.
Maybe it is because both of these were finished scores?
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Meditiation from Thais easy solo_PL.jpg
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by elbsound » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:23 am

We can give you support ebiggs1 on which settings in your file or in the plug-in you have to change.
But as we wrote in our "Welcome"-email it is impossible to give support just by looking at a screenshot, not knowing how it looked before, what settings and fonts you used and if you fully followed the "How to use" guide (well, you already said you didn't...).

The only hint I can give you directly is for the collision with the copyright text. This is described in the How to use-document here.

But I am sure it is easy to have the rest fixed with the correct settings - both documents look technically very simple. Please send the files to the support email address that you received yesterday.

The second document looks very much like the Example 2 from our example collection (Schubert, Winterreise), so in general I don't see any technical problems for this type of document.
https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/examples.php
There is also a real-time video of processing this example.
Image

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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:18 pm

"We can give you support ebiggs1 on which settings in your file or in the plug-in you have to change."

I sincerely appreciate all the help, support, you offer. The files I have run so far are all ones that I already made look pretty good in fact they have been published and sold. I have not changed any settings from the defaults. I am showing what that produces. After it completed, the Meditation file asked me to either change the staff size or the page percentage to correct it. But changing that, two times, did not correct it.
I don't have a new chart to try right now but all the settings I use to do music is basically the same. So I don't see how my settings could be the problem and if they are PL may not work for me? I have done the things PL asks at the beginning like creating a "cues" expression box. Since Finale doesn't have a create selection (in expressions) I copied one expression box and renamed it. Is that OK?

I would imagine most people will run your PL as I have. A basic Finale score and run PL with the defaults. I'm still learning.
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by motet » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:26 pm

You've misspelled Meditation ("Meditiation"). I would also put a dieresis on the i in Thaïs.

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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:38 pm

"You've misspelled Meditation ("Meditiation"). I would also put a dieresis on the i in Thaïs."

You are as sharp as my proof reader. :D Fortunately she caught it before it posted. That was not the final, final version. I didn't see any reason to run PL on the one that got posted. Here it is...............
Meditiation from Thais solo.jpg
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Re: elbsound.studio Perfect Layout

Post by David Ward » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:08 pm

Ha! That arrangement tickles my fancy. I work on occasion with a brilliantly versatile trombonist who quite remarkably also plays the violin to professional standard (I actually wrote a piece for her in which she does both - and sings and plays bit of percussion: I couldn't resist - and it's had a few performances - I even have a recording). Anyway, I'm sure she'd be interested in your arrangement as she does sometimes play the ‘normal’ (violin) version.
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